Bowl back mandola - maker?

[Richard500]

Recent find. Enclosed tuners, brass, no plating. Very wavy (ebony?) headstock veneer,
16 3/8 scale, 6 layers of binding/inlay, buttons show celluloid patterning. Fretboard inlays are nicely engraved. Pickguard has no deformation so possible replacement. Stave separators inside about 1/4” wide, outside very narrow. Massive bracing. I brought the nut and bridge down and lightly touched up the frets. Unusual sound, more like bouzouki.
Who or where?
Thanks!

[allenhopkins]

Silhouette's mighty like my Washburn, which is 1890's by the wooden "badge" inside. Mine's not as fancy in terms of tuners and fretboard inlays, and has alternating rosewood and maple ribs, however.

[MikeEdgerton]

The scratch-plate (Pickguard) is very similar in shape to some branded Regal bowlbacks and Bob Carlin's book does list catalog pages for Regal bowlback mandolas. The inlay and engraving on the fretboard is wonderful. Those would be Indianapolis Wulschner Regals.

[MikeEdgerton]

Jim or Mick might be able to identify the builder by the shape of the bowl. They seem to have that gift.

[brunello97]

Jim or Mick might be able to identify the builder by the shape of the bowl. They seem to have that gift.

Ha! Thanks, Mike. I think in my case it's a gift of blarney.....

But I think you and Allen are on it with a Midwest attribution. I have a couple of bowldolas, neither of which are labeled but each have a different DNA, if you will.
One does make me think it is from the MidAtlanticRim, NJ / Schmidt orbit, likely and the other is most likely an L+H product.

My guess is that this is likely also from L+H or very possibly Regal. The inset tuners suggest it's a bit earlier than the big sale of Regal to L+H but there's no way to feel fully confident on that.

I don't have Bob Carlin's book with us here in Austin this summer, so if there's a chance for you to post an image from his book of the Regal bowldolas that would be great.

Ricardo, yours looks to be in bastante bueno condition. Can you post some more photos of it?

I enjoy my bowldolas and mandolas in general, but these do take up some space on your lap.

Mick

[rcc56]

The very fine and precise engraving in the inlays looks to me like the work of Boston engraver Icilio Consalvi, who was the primary engraver for Boston makers such as W. A. Cole, Vega, Bay State/John C. Haynes, and Fairbanks until around 1905 or 1906.

Consalvi's work is well known in the antique banjo world.

We also see that pickguard shape on Vega mandolins.

I am not familiar with any examples of engraving of that quality in any instruments that were built in the mid-west. I will suggest that this instrument was built by one of the Boston companies.

[brunello97]

Vega was on my mind about this, too, from the look of the rear neck to headstock transition. That little scoop profile shows up often, though not exclusively.
I missed seeing it at first.

It is a common scratchplate profile, used in the Midwest as well, but certainly used often in Boston.

One of the things that steered me away from Vega was the bridge location...which is north of the cant unlike the normal Vega position south of it.

When Vega began that practice is uncertain to me, on the Fairbanks mandolins I've owned the bridges were north of the cant. As with the Cole mandolins I've seen.

I imagine in the slow consolidation out of which Vega emerged there were a lot of interesting instruments showing a range of details before becoming the more easily identifiable Vega style.

Here's a link to a short bit on Fairbanks with a helpful timeline.

The inset tuners was not a common practice for Fairbanks, but it suggests an Italian inspired detail which may also support a NE origin. Of course, unique features can show on any given instrument particularly one that might not be in high production.

Certainly we've seen high quality inlays on upper end Washburn mandolins, even on some of the American Conservatory line. Wulschner Regals as well.
Hard, for me at least, to make a judgement call just based on that alone.

Some more photos of the back would help but, yeah, could very well be from Boston, perhaps a bit earlier than the classic Vega period.

Mick

[Richard500]

Thanks! Here are a few more photos. Lacking the literature resources you have, I spent some time trying to ID the enclosed tuners, with no solid results. I would have removed the covers in my quick setup for cleaning, but for these, the strings would all have to be removed for access. In the photos, the shape of the binding on the apron (?) is shown, the very dark headstock veneer with the wavy grain, and detail on two of the fretboard inlays, and the tailpiece. I have noticed that early Vegas sport assorted and engraved inlays as per the suggestion of a NE origin. There are about 24 staves.
As for condition, it is nice and has likely been seldom played and left strung over the years. Because the nut was high (the bridge is a different issue), it is possible that it wasn’t set up well initially, was hard to play, and set aside for a century…

[MikeEdgerton]

There are examples of some really fine Regal pearl engraving in the Carlin book. I can't place the overall shape of any part of the bowl with the mandola examples shown though. That volute should point to a maker as well. The headstock shape was used by a bunch of people.

Try Nevr-Dull to remove the corrosion. It's not abrasive. You might be able to find it locally at Lowes or Home Depot.

[brunello97]

That neck / headstock detail is one of the markers I look for when thinking Vega, Mike, but the bridge position is the real smoking gun.

I don't think this was made by Vega but maybe from among the constellation of makers in Boston such as RC suggests. Possibly pre-dating Vega.

Super interesting to me to imagine how a detail might travel along with craftsfolk and equipment, tools, space, mandolin parts etc. and coalesce in another place altogether with other details.

Hard to tell from that one photo, but my Vega (and Vega made) bowls do have that kind of deep profile that Richard's photo implies.
More shots would help of course.

Yes, the Vinaccia-style 'open book' or simplified pediment headstock was very popular in a lot of subtle variations.

Richard, I'm assuming you have it tuned CGDA, is that correct?

Mick

[Richard500]

Mick, CGDA (440), and on the strings it came with, which I miked. I’m far more cavalier than it seems many members are, and shouldn’t be trusted with any careful tasks, at least according to Carrie, and I was perhaps taking some chance by firing this thing up, but I just wanted to hear it.
Following your repeated suggestions to go as light as possible on bowl backs, I probably should adjust gauges and replace the strings. Possibly the ‘bouzouki’ tonality could be string related too. I have the feeling that it would sound quite rich on nylon too, but I won’t do that!
I’m away from the object again for two days, but I’ll tape-measure the bowl in a few sections if that’s useful. By the way, from the wood color inside the bowl, one guess might be walnut, another rosewood - dark anyway. The finish seems to be just a clear coat, and has lifted in patches. A light wipe with whatever passes for denatured alcohol (often up to half methanol) seemed to help it, so maybe it is shellac, and can be left alone.

About ergonomics: Only played it for an hour or so, but that massive butt end seems to rest better than a mandolin, a bit toward my right side and counterbalances neutrally. The neck, being very thick and my fingers, short, is so far awkward, but then I’m no musician either.

[rcc56]

I got curious and started surfing around, looking for a Chicago mandolin with engraved inlays. I didn't recall ever seeing one.

I did find one, a Washburn at Fred Oster's Vintage Instruments. http://www.vintage-instruments.com/s...ndolin-c-1900/ It's nice engraving. It does not have quite as much detail as the instrument in the original post.

I think that a semi-comprehensive history book of American bowl-back mandolins would be a nice project, but it might take many years to put one together. There were a lot of makers, many of the instruments have lost their labels, and there's not much reliable information easily available on 19th century instrument making in the US.

I'd keep the strings quite light on that mandola. You might start with a fairly light standard mandolin set, tune it to CGDA, see what it does, and go up only very cautiously if it's too floppy. An off-the-shelf modern mandola set will likely tear it to pieces quickly.

[Richard500]

That Washburn is elegant, and worth saving. Might even be easy, given the back cover disguising any needed reinforcements. I can see how collecting these flowers of woodworking craft might be addictive, especially since there’s hardly much of a price barrier to accumulating them. These days, a couple of sheets of plywood get up into the same cost range… I can’t say I’m collecting more than just experimenting, but I did get that all- aluminum one with no expectation of it being nice-sounding. Just materials technology and history. However, the wheel engraving on it is remarkable too.

[MikeEdgerton]

Those inlays might have been available from a jobber the same way that many of the other parts were.

[allenhopkins]

Took out my Washburn for comparison, and found a lot of differences. The profile of the "skirt" around the lower end of the bowl is much more refined on the mandola in question. My Washburn has simple dot fingerboard inlays, and a quite elaborate tailpiece with a hinged crown-shaped cover, and a small locking lug that has to be turned to allow the cover to be raised and the strings accessed.

The overall silhouettes of the two instruments are very similar, and both have the bridge "north" of the cant, but otherwise quite different -- including my instrument's alternating maple and rosewood bowl ribs.

[brunello97]

I think that a semi-comprehensive history book of American bowl-back mandolins would be a nice project, but it might take many years to put one together. There were a lot of makers, many of the instruments have lost their labels, and there's not much reliable information easily available on 19th century instrument making in the US.

Right now, the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread here might be the best repository on bowl back mandolins available. While it is heavy on Italian mandolins, there have been many discussions of American bowls as well.

Such an overall book would be an amazing, if daunting undertaking. Perhaps a piecemeal approach is all we can hope for.

Keef's book on Washburn / L+H and Bob Carlin's book on Regal are a good start...but are comprehensive with material on guitars, banjos, etc.

Bob Hartman's book on the Larsons, while welcome, is highly problematic with many of mandolin ascribements.

The various Martin histories naturally include mandolins, but I think we'd all appreciate a deep dive. Something a PhD student in ethnomusicology might engage.

Or like a musician-scholar like Sheri Mignano is doing for the history of Italian-American mandolin music, musicians and publishers.

I've been hoping Mike and Jim put their minds and files behind a look at the Philadephia-to-New York builders that they have a lot of knowledge about: Weymann, Schmidt, Ciani, Ricca, Favilla.

A book on Harwood instruments and Jenkins family would be great as well.

And of course, somebody sorting through and compiling the stories of Cole, Fairbanks, Vega and the Boston makers.

Each of these areas have distinctly different histories as well as design influences and design distinctions to make for wonderful compare-and-contrast scenarios.

Even linking the "Mugwumps" listings to an image catalog as a Wiki project would be a great contribuition.

Easy for me to say, right?

I've been working on a comprehensive website of Italian bowlback mandolin makers since last summer as a co-vid project. I've just made it through "C".
(A lot of Italian surnames start with a C......)

Outside of the big players such as mentioned above, my image file collection of US bowls isn't anywhere near as robust, I'm sorry to say.

I think one of the best things we can do here is to use good clear naming conventions for thread titles to make searching for information on different makers, different labels a bit easier here. So much useful information already.

Mick

[MikeEdgerton]

Jake Wildwood has two Vega Bowlbacks on his blog that have the same shape on the scratch guard and similar shape on the non-stave parts of the bowl, as well as one has the same headstock shape. Neither has the volute. I'm thinking the Massachhusettes connection might be correct.

Some "For the trade" instruments are easy to identify. Others not so much.

[brunello97]

Jake Wildwood has two Vega Bowlbacks on his blog..... Neither has the volute.

Some "For the trade" instruments are easy to identify. Others not so much.

Yessir. That's what makes this so tricky as you suggest. We'll tend to see that detail on MA mandolins almost uniquely but not every one has it.

Makes me wonder about who directing that traffic at the time to include such a detail and then not so?
My Vega has got it as does my Vega-made Ditson Empire, but I've seen plenty of others without it, including Jake's.

We've had interesting discussions here on the topic of "making to spec" and I think it's fascinating to consider how those specs got sent along?
Drawings? Model instruments to copy? Templates? Verbal instructions? Probably a mixture of all.

You can imagine it all being very different in a small shop than in a larger Vega sized operation.

Very interesting stuff.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

The very fine and precise engraving in the inlays looks to me like the work of Boston engraver Icilio Consalvi, who was the primary engraver for Boston makers such as W. A. Cole, Vega, Bay State/John C. Haynes, and Fairbanks until around 1905 or 1906.

Consalvi's work is well known in the antique banjo world.

We also see that pickguard shape on Vega mandolins.

I am not familiar with any examples of engraving of that quality in any instruments that were built in the mid-west. I will suggest that this instrument was built by one of the Boston companies.

I know it is very difficult to tell quality of work in an online photo but looking at the fretboard inlays I am a bit skeptical to conclude that they were done by Consalvi. They are fairly simple inlays comparatively but Consalvi was incredibly precise on his line work and I see a bit of sloppiness here. And it is way too easy to jump into the conclusion as we have all learned about those brothers in Chicago attributions.

On the other hand, I do agree that there is a likelihood that this could have been built by one of the Boston companies.

[Jim Garber]

Here's another small detail that may or may not add to the info we are all gathering. Still within the radius of Boston makers. This mandolin plated by a teacher named Fred Martin on Boston and who was known to purchase Fairbanks instruments. The apron of this one is unusual in general but is similar to the OP's. Other aspects do not match, of course. And other Fairbanks mandolins I have in my files have different details. So it goes...

[MikeEdgerton]

Here's another small detail that may or may not add to the info we are all gathering. Still within the radius of Boston makers. This mandolin plated by a teacher named Fred Martin on Boston and who was known to purchase Fairbanks instruments. The apron of this one is unusual in general but is similar to the OP's. Other aspects do not match, of course. And other Fairbanks mandolins I have in my files have different details. So it goes...

Apron. That was the term I couldn't remember in my post above.

[brunello97]

Beautiful rosewood on that Fred-Fairbanks mandolin, Jim. Exquisite.

I guess if you're going to cut down a rain forest you might as well get some wonderful mandolins out of it.

I've always enjoyed that neck-to-bowl cowling that we see on both East Coast and Chicago instruments.

I imagine it provides some assist to the bowl assembly, but the staves are all being glued to the neck block there.

I just think it makes a great counterpoint to the back end of the apron profile.

There's a few details out there that nicely resolve the sharply tapering ends of the bowl staves.

The recurve in the bowl shape that Embergher / Cerrone et al deploy here is a real tour-de-force of expert craft to pull off that detail so wonderfully without a covering cowl.

The Vega-style fretboard extension detail has crept into the design, too, and away from the very Italian end curve following the soundhole profile in the OP's bowl.

Attached is a 1905 Fairbanks....just post acquisition by Vega, which looks very Vega-table...but for the bridge position. Perhaps the company is still getting some mileage out of the ACF name.

A slow accretion of details.

Mick

[Richard500]

Wealth of information. Garber’s putative Fairbanks has the same enclosed tuners as mine, another photo attached. Since the disadvantage of this design (total string removal for access, and also complexity) might have held sales down, another clue to date. I’m now thinking the outer parts are German silver, not brass. Here are some more dimensions: around the largest part of the bowl, transverse, 20 1/4”. From the neck join to the tailpiece around the bowl 21 1/2.” Around the top binding 39”. Also another photo of the headstock veneer with the interesting grain, which I’m now thinking isn’t grain at all, but the original finish brush marks disclosed by film separation - hardly as interesting as wavy ebony. Brush marks, important on oil paintings, likely not so exciting on mandolins.

[brunello97]

.....Since the disadvantage of this design (total string removal for access, and also complexity) might have held sales down, another clue to date. Also another photo of the headstock veneer with the interesting grain, which I’m now thinking isn’t grain at all, but the original finish brush marks disclosed by film separation - hardly as interesting as wavy ebony. Brush marks, important on oil paintings, likely not so exciting on mandolins.

Rather than a sales liability, these inset / covered tuners tended to be used on the better mandolins of the era... both in the US and in Italy. Calace used them well into the '30s.

That's pretty cool that the headstock is grain painting rather than grain. There was quite a bit of faux finishing going on, some more convincing, some more exotic.

Mick

[Richard500]

Mick, not grain painting, but an effect of aging on the varnish (or whatever), so that the lumps in the brush strokes eventually had more shrinkage than the thin parts, causing them to lift and show a pattern, of air gaps. At least that’s what I think, so far, but it’s cool anyway, and I won’t remediate it.
Yes, there are lots of covered tuners over the years, some of them wraparound like these, but have slots so they can be lifted off without disturbing the tuners, but these capture the button shafts, so everything has to come off together. That’s what I meant as a disadvantage. When I do change to lighter strings, out of general curiosity I’ll remove them for a clean and lube; there may be maker’s name, patent number, or country stamped inside. Will post photos if so.