Need some help to assess the value of a restored 1972 F5 Gibson

[Argos]

Hello everyone,

I am visiting a French city and happen to find a French guitar craftsman who restored an 1972 F5 Gibson mandolin
It is very rare to find a good F5 Gibson in France, I am planning to try it today, Would anyone mind helping me to be sure if the price is not too high ?
The price announced is 5000€ it seems in very good shape, the head machine tuners (don’t know if it’s the proper translation sorry) have been changed for Waverly s brend, as for how it sounds I have no idea at the moment

I found 2 1972 F5 on a site between 2200 and 2400 dollars, between euro rate taxes etc it seems that 5000€ is a bit rough though

Would anyone care helping me ?

Thanks in advance

[MikeEdgerton]

Could you post pictures of the mandolin? It is very difficult to assess an instrument's value without seeing it.

Pourrais-tu poster des photos de la mandoline ? Il est très difficile d'évaluer la valeur d'un instrument sans le voir.

[Argos]

Could you post pictures of the mandolin? It is very difficult to assess an instrument's value without seeing it.

Pourrais-tu poster des photos de la mandoline ? Il est très difficile d'évaluer la valeur d'un instrument sans le voir.

Thanks for the French translation but don’t bother I am married to a en English litterature doctor )

I am trying to upload the pics available on his web site

[Argos]

I don’t know if the strains on the face body near the neck are optical illusions or real I’ll know tomorrow (the shop is closed today)

[Argos]

And again

[allenhopkins]

They're asking nearly $6,000 US for the F-5, which is quite steep. Gibson F'5's made just before the introduction of the F-5L in 1978 do not get the level of respect that earlier and later models do. (By the way, if you'd like to read Roger Siminoff's story of developing the F-5L, here's a link.)

Definitely hard to find decent-condition used Gibson F-5's in Europe, and difficult to pass up an opportunity. Those may be lacquer "checking" marks at the base of the neck, but not easy to tell from the pics. In any case, they wouldn't be unusual on a 50-year-old instrument, and wouldn't be a structural concern.

I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a 1970's F-5, but whether you do depends on how much you want to take advantage of a rare chance to get one in France.

[rcc56]

During the 1970's, Gibson craftsmanship was at its lowest point in the company's entire history.
In the US, the equivalent of 5000 euros would be twice the instrument's normal market value.

Unless the instrument has been taken apart and re-graduated, it is highly unlikely that either its tone or projection are good.
I would not recommend any Gibson mandolin or acoustic guitar from the 1970's to anyone. There are better mandolins being made in Asia for 1/4 of the asking price of the instrument you are inquiring about.

[Charles E.]

Ditto on what rcc56 said.

Here is a list of mandolin builders in France from the Cafe's builders section.....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin...?search=France

You should be able to get a much better mandolin for your money then a 1970's Gibson.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks for the French translation but don’t bother I am married to a en English litterature doctor )

I'm married to a French woman.

Can you get a closer shot of the back of the headstock?

[MikeEdgerton]

I don’t know if the strains on the face body near the neck are optical illusions or real I’ll know tomorrow (the shop is closed today)

That appears to be finish checking. Those "cracks" should be in the finish.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Hello everyone,

I am visiting a French city and happen to find a French guitar craftsman who restored an 1972 F5 Gibson mandolin
It is very rare to find a good F5 Gibson in France, I am planning to try it today, Would anyone mind helping me to be sure if the price is not too high ?
The price announced is 5000€ it seems in very good shape, the head machine tuners (don’t know if it’s the proper translation sorry) have been changed for Waverly s brend, as for how it sounds I have no idea at the moment

I found 2 1972 F5 on a site between 2200 and 2400 dollars, between euro rate taxes etc it seems that 5000€ is a bit rough though

Would anyone care helping me ?

Thanks in advance

Red: You are visiting a French city coming from where? From Dubai? From Nashville Tennessee? From Berlin?
If you're French and you live in France, find out about French builders and French mandolin players. Philip Bony (lefty and french) is a member here. There is https://france-bluegrass.fr/france-b...nguage=english where you can connect with fellow musicians luthiers etc. They can probably point you in the right direction.
If you are located in a different country I would definitely rule out that I can buy a mandolin where I live before I would focus on any Gibson F-5 in France (except the few Lloyd Loar mandolins that live there...).

Green (Craftsman): Which guitar luthier did you talk to. There are accomplished luthiers like Hervé Coufleau (read this where I posted a looong time back: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...p/t-62002.html and maybe his facebook thing: https://de-de.facebook.com/login/?ne...08644778016%2F). I found his mandolins to be well made (no recent experience). If the luthier is a guy like him... then okay. I'd advance some trust. If not, I'd like to know how the "restoration" was accomplished etc. Why... read on.

A 70ies Gibson (F-5) is generally considered c r a p. I would not even consider to try such an instrument out. I do think that there are very many, very good, no, excellent alternatives at any price point.

Purple: If you are looking for an instrument at the 5.000,- EUR price range a 70ies Gibson is definetly way too expensive. The alternatives are so multifold that it is mind boggling. You do not even have to live in France to be able to buy extremely nice instruments from all over the place that fall into that price segment.

Go to TAMCO in Brighton (UK) and find out what Trevor has. I was there (a long time ago, not meeting Trevor). It had a very fine selection of mandolins (while I visited a Heiden A-5 and a Brentrup PML F-5 stood out in my opinion). You could visit the Laroche sur Foron Bluegrass Festival (beginning of August) and talk to most anyone there (and the luthiers) and find out where to go in France to buy a nice mandolin. Of course you must not discount the Czech luthiers (Krishot, HoGo, Vana, Holoubek, Lebeda, Capek, Prucha, Janish etc. to name some of the most prominent). Any Czech luthier punches extremely well in the price segment of five thousand EUR and way higher than any 70ies Gibson F-5.

I´d put my Daniel Boone coonskin cap on and track down just the right mandolin. For me that would mean to check out festivals, root out luthiers (of the mandolin style that I am interested in ... F-5, A-5, F-4, A-4, Portuguese, Neapolitan etc.; like https://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin...?search=france).

For what it's worth: When I was looking for a mandolin (I couldn't play one, mind you...) I knew that there was Jürgen Richter´s shop in Hamburg (Karolinenestraße). He is a luthier and had built some A style mandolins and also F-style mandolins. I knew that from having seen a bluegrass duo "Traveling Men" in another century in another country in another town. One of the musicians played a Richter F-5. I thought it was the best thing on earth. So I went there and tried out every mandolin in the shop (and probably annoying Jürgen Richter beyond tolerance...). I played a Bill Monroe F-5 model Gibson, a Sammick A-5, a Kentucky A-5, several vintage Gibson A-4, A-jr, a Richter A-5 (nice!) etc. etc. In the end I asked if he knew the brand Strad-O-Lin. I had read about that in Jack Tottle´s "Bluegrass Mandolin". Jürgen Richter said that by chance he had one. I tried it, dabbled with it back to back with pretty much all the other mandolins that I played. Initially it was the priciest mandolin that I could afford and the one that sounded the best. So I bought it. It will stay with me forever, this little dirty, lowly, growly, wonderful, tuneful mandolin.

I do think that this is the way you should go and hunt down your future beloved musical partner.

[Argos]

Thank you all for your precious answers

@grassrootphilosopher

I am from France (paris) and visiting south for the holidays, I had not planned to buy any instrument at all (+ luggage of madness with a flamenco guitar, a baby bass and a mando in the van …) I have 3 crappy to a bit less crappy mandolins at home (one crappy f style, one crappy napolitain and one “idontknowwhatchinese thing”) , I am a guitar player but I slipped inside the mandolin rabbit hole 5 years ago and was considering buying a nice instrument to go on now in the range of 2000€-3000€, actually probably a Napolitain mandolin from a German luthier but as you know traveling was a complete nightmare inside and outside of France lately because of you know what

I play many things on the mandolin (classical and baroque musique, choro and bluegrass) but my heart always belonged to bluegrass regarding mandolin and the F5 Gibson always had my child’s heart banged

F5 Gibson are incredibly rare in France, so when I stepped across that 1972 F5 in an improbable southern French luthier shop my heart jumped, occasion makes the thieves, and voilà here I am asking noob questions …

Thanks for answering them and for your recommendations

@mikeedgerton

Here is another picture

There is a possibility that we are the same person in parallel dimensions

Thanks for the link on the F5-L )

[rcc56]

I would be more inclined to buy an Eastman 515, 615, or 815 for ~1000 to 1500 euros than a 1970's Gibson F-5. The Eastmans will be better instruments.

3000 euros will buy a lot of nice modern era US made mandolins, or a fine Czech instrument. But in that price range, the only decent modern Gibson would be an A-5L.


If you have your heart set on a Gibson in your price range, you might want to consider a nice oval hole F-2 or A-4. Many of the 100 year old oval hole Gibsons are very good instruments.

[CarlM]

There are a number of excellent Czech builders, like Prucha and Lebeda, who build outstanding instruments. At that price you should be able to buy one of their instruments which would serve you far better.

[Argos]

There are a number of excellent Czech builders, like Prucha and Lebeda, who build outstanding instruments. At that price you should be able to buy one of their instruments which would serve you far better.

Thanks for the advice but that’s not my question

In paris there are Eastman mandolins everywhere, there is a 3000€ A style Gibson from the 20’s that has been rotting for 5 years and more in la rue de Douai, a few years ago I v seen in a little arcade next to the Louvre an old F4 Gibson (can’t remember the year) that was not sounding incredible at all and that the seller wouldn’t let go for less than 5000€

I know I could get very good instruments for 2000-3000€ from Germany or Brazil, one of my friend is actually a really good flamenco guitar craftsman that was excited in crafting me a bandolim for that kind of money, one of the few good napolitean mandolin restorator in Paris always repeats me «to craft a fine mandolin you need 3000€ top top, above that you are paying history or stealing the sh… out of your customer#» (he can get rude pretty early in the morning depending on the quantity of booze in his coffee)

I also want to buy a 3000€ Musicman bass but that’s not the point )

As I said occasion makes thieves. You never ever never see a F5 Gibson in France. Never.
So when you come across one you try it (which I will do) and if it pleases you (in every industrial instrument série you have bad ducks and good ducks all things relatives, a good “400€ bad duck” will always be a 400€ bad duck) and that you want to buy it even if it s a higher price you were expecting to give, you better know a thing or two about it because you know FOR SURE the seller will outprice it

But by chance I have all of u wonderful people teaching me those one thing or two so thanks again I ll let u know if it s crap or not

[CarlM]

Gibson was under the ownership of a financial conglomerate, Norlin Corporation from 1969 through 1986. The parent company simply did not care about musical instrument making during most of that time. There was some attempt to turn that around with the introduction of the F5L in 1978. However the instruments aside from the F5L are generally not good. This is outside the normal ups and downs of factory production. This applies to guitars as well as mandolins. It was a matter of design and production processes as much or more than general quality problems which were also there. Gibson mandolins and guitars did not really start to return to consistently being decent instruments till the late 1980s or early 1990s under new ownership which was interested in building musical instruments.

You may get lucky. The odds are quite against that. The 1970s were a bad era for acoustic instruments due to corporate conglomerates cashing in on the popularity of acoustic guitars at the time. Martin Guitars went through the same issues with corporate ownership during that time. The Martin family stepped in to turn that back around.

[Argos]

@CarlM

I see your point. After reading your message and grassrootphilosopher ‘s one I went reading a lot of awful things about 70’s Gibsons F5.
Though Big Joe on Mandolin cafe forum said that those mandolins could be regraduated, emphasizing on checking the neck angle and looking for “binding rots”
I’ll ask the luthier if he was aware of all that and if the price is justified by the time he spent regraduating it, as soon as I ll play it I ll know,
Thanks again

[rcc56]

If you are adamant about buying a modern era Gibson F-5, Gruhn Guitars is currently listing a 2003 model for $6250, or 5267 Euros.
Gibson was making better mandolins in 2003 than they were in the 1970's.

Gruhn Guitars has been in business for 50 years, and has been shipping internationally for decades. They will often accept offers that are modestly less than their listed prices.

Again, the answer to your original question: 5000 euros [$5932] is approximately twice the normal market value of a 1970's Gibson F-5 in good condition in the US. It is also far more than the market value of one that has been conscientiously regraduated by an expert.

Ecoutez-moi; cinq mille c'est trop cher. Beaucoup trop cher. Pardonnez-moi pour ma pauvre Francais. Bonne chance.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I am from France (paris) and visiting south for the holidays, I had not planned to buy any instrument at all (+ luggage of madness with a flamenco guitar, a baby bass and a mando in the van …) ...

Don't I know how you feel. You are on a trip and suddenly you see what you are craving.

I am a guitar player but I slipped inside the mandolin rabbit hole 5 years ago and was considering buying a nice instrument to go on now in the range of 2000€-3000€, actually probably a Napolitain mandolin from a German luthier...

I started out on guitar also. Now I have branched out on several instruments with the mandolin having been my primary (band) instrument. I really liked the idea of bluegrass mandolin back then (still do) and I wanted to go down that road badly. Yes, I know how you feel. Eventually my Strad-O-Lin got a pricier companion but that is another story.

I play many things on the mandolin (classical and baroque musique, choro and bluegrass) but my heart always belonged to bluegrass regarding mandolin and the F5 Gibson always had my child’s heart banged ...

Here again, I know how you feel. When I bought my Strad-O-Lin they had this Bill Monroe model Gibson F-5 in the shop. I played that too. I thought it was the pinnacle of mandolin lutherie. And it had the Gibson name on the headplate. Oh, how I longed for that instrument which was so out of my availability.

In time and after so many jam sessions I can truly say that I have seen played and listened to many Gibson F-2s, F-4s, As, A-4s, Ajr-s to retract my urge for a 90es Gibson Bill Monroe model F-5. Having played mandolins of the CZ builders that I mentioned as well as Gilchrist and Duff, Hawthorne, Girouard, Old Wave, Phoenix (Rolfe Gerhart) etc. I can say that the Gibson name on a headstock is just that.

Would we talk about a Lloyd Loar F-5 or a prewar Fern Gibson the discussion goes off in a different direction. Until then it's all about sound and the postwar Gibson to consider would have to be sublime if I were to consider it. That includes post 2000 Gibsons (Derrington, Roberts, Harvey) which are generally great but without a justifiable price-performance ratio.

F5 Gibson are incredibly rare in France, so when I stepped across that 1972 F5 in an improbable southern French luthier shop my heart jumped, occasion makes the thieves, and voilà here I am asking noob questions …

I will be interested to read your findings about the F-5. I jammed with the Czech mandolin player Michael Krajcek once. I had read he had a Vana F-5. At that time it was not delivered to him and he had with him a post war F-12 that was regraduated by Randy Wood. It was a good mandolin. Yet it didn't speak to me. And so it goes.

Bonnes vacances.

[allenhopkins]

Argos, I'm basically quite sympathetic with your dilemma. You're not going to get many chances to find and test-drive a Gibson F-5 in France. The fact that the particular model you're trying, is from a disrespected "vintage" of Gibson mandolins -- plus the fact that the price is at the upper end of what used '60's-'70's F-5's are sold for -- make your choice that much harder.

You've been presented with a whole bunch of alternative accessible mandolins, but they ain't Gibson F-5's -- a model which remains the standard for bluegrass instruments, though this particular one may be an inferior representative of that standard. But you know what you're doing around mandolins, you've gotten a lot of useful information, and you're going into the situation "eyes open."

I really hope that you find the unusually good '70's F-5, and that you can purchase it knowing you got value for your money. Overall, my long-distance subjective view is that your chances aren't that good, but after all, every instrument is an individual, and generalizations can only go so far.

Good luck!

[journeybear]

As the former owner of a late 70s Gibson F-12 (I think 1977; and similar to F-5 though not quite the same) I can attest to it being not as great an instrument as I'd thought when acquiring it. It looked great and played well, but after 30 years of frequent playing it never truly "opened up" or developed a rally good sound. So I'm no longer as bothered by it being stolen as I was when it was 15 years ago. Indeed, by a roundabout route which I never would have taken otherwise, I learned several important things about mandolins in general and this one in particular after joining the Café and discussing it with more knowledgeable people. They could tell without hearing it about its inferior quality because of the period in which it was built - and they were right, sad to say. They were also right to guide me toward replacing it with something more like my first mandolin - a plain A oval hole Gibson from the 19-teens. I found one such from 1917, which was in every respect a much better instrument and more suitable to this non-bluegrass player's style. That's not to say I don't play bluegrass nor can't if I want to, but it's not usually what I do. And since this one cost ~720€, I daresay I got a very good deal.

I understand the allure of an F5 - they are beautiful instruments and can sound great - but if the sound isn't there, it's not worth it. Go ahead and play this one, but do it with your eyes closed, comme on dit. If the sound doesn't entrance you, walk away, and never look back. If you find a vintage Gibson at a decent price, go with that instead. And listen to the advice from these guys. They do know their stuff.