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Thread: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing match

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Believe what you want to believe, but that is actually incorrect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Subtle humor, or attempts thereof, often escapes so many people.
    Oh, OK. Subtlety is often a casualty of printed communication, which does not convey inflection. Hence, the emoji.

    For the record, in all seriousness and sincerity, I'm as surprised and disappointed as anyone about this. But I feel duty-bound to follow the facts, wherever they have led. I wish it were otherwise, and as I said, I'm mystified there's no alternative pronunciation with the "o" sound. I imagine lexicographers put much less thought and/or research into this matter than we have. They couldn't possibly care as much about this as we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    As for pronunciation of the name of our favorite chordophone, I've heard it referred to as a "mannalyn" by folks from regions of the US.
    Ouch! Now there's an alternative pronunciation. I believe the proper term for that is a "colloquialism." What's next, "man-lin?"
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Since we have wandered so far afield of my question, and since differences between languages has become a topic, I must share with you the ingredients of a wonderful misunderstanding that took place back in 2004.

    My Tahitian sister, her husband, and their six-year-old daughter were visiting me here in the USA--their first visit here. Little Hoanie lost her first tooth at the San Diego Zoo. That night before she went to bed, I told her (in French, because my Tahitian was far too basic) the story of the Tooth Fairy.

    One hitch: The French word for fairy, "fée," sounds identical to the Tahitian "fe'e," which means . . . octopus.
    Now, what was I after when I wandered in here?

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila Lagrand View Post
    One hitch: The French word for fairy, "fée," sounds identical to the Tahitian "fe'e," which means . . . octopus.
    That, my friend, is the epitome of awesomeness. ... love this kind of stuff.

    Apparently there was a time when the word "awful" meant "full of awe" as in "O' how awful is our God..."... now that means something quite different. Chew on that a minute.
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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by soliver View Post
    That, my friend, is the epitome of awesomeness. ... love this kind of stuff.

    Apparently there was a time when the word "awful" meant "full of awe" as in "O' how awful is our God..."... now that means something quite different. Chew on that a minute.
    And "awesome" used to mean "awe-inspiring," rather than "really good."

    Shall we discuss the similarities between "terrible" and "terrific" next?
    Now, what was I after when I wandered in here?

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila Lagrand View Post
    Since we have wandered so far afield of my question, and since differences between languages has become a topic, I must share with you the ingredients of a wonderful misunderstanding that took place back in 2004.

    My Tahitian sister, her husband, and their six-year-old daughter were visiting me here in the USA--their first visit here. Little Hoanie lost her first tooth at the San Diego Zoo. That night before she went to bed, I told her (in French, because my Tahitian was far too basic) the story of the Tooth Fairy.

    One hitch: The French word for fairy, "fée," sounds identical to the Tahitian "fe'e," which means . . . octopus.
    I, for one, would not want the Tooth Octopus reaching under my pillow at night.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post

    ...

    Though I make spelling and grammar mistakes, not to mention typos, I was a bit of a stickler on these issues when I marked university papers. I feel that if you're an educated person or a professional writer, you should be aware of basic rules of the language, and only break them consciously and creatively...
    I've graded so many papers over the years that I can't remember which "its" it's is any more.

    And... is it MANdolin or mandoLIN?

    D.H.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    In Canada, we use "jail" -- I'd like to say that it's pronounced as it is in the USA, but that's too much of a generalization. I'll leave that one to the linguists. Mostly our spelling shares commonalities with both Canadian and American spelling, with a few of our own quirks and unique words.
    Speaking of errors, I should have said "British and American spelling," which I'm sure may of you deduced.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Reminds me somehow of the language options on facebook. In English, there are US and UK. In French, there are France and Canada. There is no Cajun French, which is different from both - probably not enough demand. And there used to be English (Pirate), which was a hoot, but gave me a headache from constantly having to deduce and translate in my head.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hicks View Post
    And... is it MANdolin or mandoLIN?
    If you look at my report, you'll see the accents indicated. All four examples offer both options. Make of that what you will.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Reminds me somehow of the language options on facebook. In English, there are US and UK. In French, there are France and Canada. There is no Cajun French, which is different from both - probably not enough demand. And there used to be English (Pirate), which was a hoot, but gave me a headache from constantly having to deduce and translate in my head.
    Facebook also lacks (at least so far as I can tell) Tahitian French, French of any of the African nations, Lebanese French, Syrian French, Vietnamese French, Swiss French, Belgian French--I do believe Mr. Zuckerberg's bias is showing. Hmmph!
    Now, what was I after when I wandered in here?

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    Speaking of errors, I should have said "British and American spelling," which I'm sure may of you deduced.
    Speaking of errors, I should have said "many of you" which I'm sure many of you deduced.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    I believe the central, almost non, vowel in mandolin is called a schwa.
    It is the British English indefinite article "a" pronounced uh, not ay.
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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandophyte View Post
    I believe the central, almost non, vowel in mandolin is called a schwa.
    It is the British English indefinite article "a" pronounced uh, not ay.
    That's right, and the schwa covers fifty per cent or more of the vowel sounds in Canadian English (like most statistics, this one was made up on the spot, but you get the idea). The scwa is depicted as an upside down, lower case "e," in the pronunciation guides in dictionaries.

    I was waiting for my mandolin lesson but my teacher just cancelled because of internet problems.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    AAArgh!!! Louise NM, you just reminded me of one of my least favo(u)rite things done by some internet posters and occasional letter writers - so far as I've seen, the perpetrators are mostly from USA.

    Why do some people MAKE a habit of capitalising APPARENTLY irrelevant WORDS in written OR typed text? There doesn't seem to be any RHYME or reason to the PRACTICE, it's just something THEY do, apparently under the IMPRESSION that BY doing this THEY add emphasis TO the debate.

    Anyone know where that came from, or how or why?

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    I have a friend who has moved to Germany, so now she's pretty much a facebook friend, whose personal agenda and thus answer for just about every failing of anything American is America's woefully inadequate public education system. I don't completely agree, nor do I want to start a socio-political debate (if I do so inadvertently, I apologize in advance), but I can't say with certainty that that isn't at least a factor.

    People SHOULD know better, and the evidence showing that many DON'T is nearly overwhelming. I get the impression that many people insist on typing as fast as they can, as if in some sort of rush to say what they want. and don't take the time to go back, read what they've typed, analyze their posts, and make corrections, before sending. One if the most underrated and underutilized aspects of this communication form is EDITING. I wish more people would embrace it and practice it.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    AAArgh!!! Louise NM, you just reminded me of one of my least favo(u)rite things done by some internet posters and occasional letter writers - so far as I've seen, the perpetrators are mostly from USA.

    Why do some people MAKE a habit of capitalising APPARENTLY irrelevant WORDS in written OR typed text? There doesn't seem to be any RHYME or reason to the PRACTICE, it's just something THEY do, apparently under the IMPRESSION that BY doing this THEY add emphasis TO the debate.

    Anyone know where that came from, or how or why?
    Maybe, just maybe, distinctions like bold and italics weren't available when PCs first hit the scene, thus leading to the CAPITALIZATION habit. I can't remember if my trusty Kaypro offered those fancy typographical options or not.
    Now, what was I after when I wandered in here?

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    I've both enjoyed and participated in this meandering thread. However, I'm sure there are better places on the internet to discuss the inadequacy of your country's public education system. If it is inadequate -- I'm not saying that it is -- stop criticizing Mandolin Cafe members who received this poor education. Perhaps it's time to put this whole thread to rest. Anyone who is self-conscious about their lack of writing skills is going to find Mandolin Cafe to be a hostile place, which is not what any of us wants.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Duly noted and point well taken. I reiterate my stance on the matter, which is I do NOT want this to become a debate about that. If it does, I will voluntarily edit my post to remove the part which you find offensive, if not the whole thing. I believe the first paragraph, which broaches that subject in passing without delving into it, sets up the second paragraph, which is more directly a response to maxr's post. And rest assured, this comment was not intended to be nor even was a criticism of Café members, but an observation about the typing community in general (indeed, facebook more than any other platform, though I didn't specify). So I'll let it stand for now. But if things veer in that direction during the time allotted (one can edit one's post for three hours following posting time), it'll be gone. I don't think it will come to that - hopefully not - but I value continued pleasant thoughtful discourse among all above whatever reward my contributions may provide. That is, public peace is more important than personal pride.

    I hope your concern proves to be unwarranted. But I thank you for expressing it. Peace.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    AAArgh!!! Louise NM, you just reminded me of one of my least favo(u)rite things done by some internet posters and occasional letter writers - so far as I've seen, the perpetrators are mostly from USA.

    Why do some people MAKE a habit of capitalising APPARENTLY irrelevant WORDS in written OR typed text? There doesn't seem to be any RHYME or reason to the PRACTICE, it's just something THEY do, apparently under the IMPRESSION that BY doing this THEY add emphasis TO the debate.

    Anyone know where that came from, or how or why?
    Probably as many reasons as writers, maxr. I worked as an editor for a time and saw just about every variety of misplaced capital out there. There are people who capitalize most nouns, usually just the first letter and not the whole word. Acronyms probably contribute: ASAP is capitalized, "as soon as possible" isn't. You'll see caps if there is the slightest whiff of a title or brand about something—no, Tuna Salad Sandwich on Rye is not a proprietary concept, Mr. Sandwich Man. Job titles are often improperly capitalized, the Sanitary Engineer at the school (incorrect) rather than Joe Blow, Sanitary Engineer (correct). Academic degrees, same thing: someone earned a bachelor's degree in music, not a Bachelor's of Science in Physics. I guess a capital is thought to make a word look more Important or to Draw Attention to it. A CuRrEnT oNe I hAvE sEeN is alternation, supposedly to convey sarcasm or mockery. Tough to read, as well as being entirely too precious.

    Where did it come from? My guess is the Winnie-the-Pooh books. As charming as they are, A. A. Milne loved to capitalize gratuitously. "“When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.” Yes indeed—out in the open it has far too many capitalized words!

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Thanks for your insights. As a somewhat reformed former editor myself, I've encountered a dizzying variety of errors. I tended to use a pretty light hand with content, but little patience with usage errors. So when I see this sort of stuff on facebook - not around here so much, owing to the generally high level of erudition that is characteristic of mandolinists - I have to bite my tongue a lot so as not to start a flame war. I'm not on twitter; I can scarcely imagine what horror my time spent there would be. As I said before, people seem averse to editing their posts before sending, for whatever reason(s). My overriding concerns in electronic communication are clarity and accuracy, in the service of conveying meaning. Taking a little time to correct errors would help greatly. Learning how to accept constructive criticism so one can learn to improve one's diction would help, too. All too often, though, people feel free to mock people for making errors, which doesn't help matters.

    I think you may be giving people too much credit with your Pooh analysis. I'm not pooh-poohing the notion outright, but it seems likely people read those books so long ago whatever notions they acquired from them would be lost to memory. People just pick up bad habits somewhere. I think people are too often careless and uncaring, and think such matters don't matter. Too bad. I daresay we all could improve our communication abilities. It wouldn't hurt to try.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post

    Where did it come from? My guess is the Winnie-the-Pooh books. As charming as they are, A. A. Milne loved to capitalize gratuitously. "“When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.” Yes indeed—out in the open it has far too many capitalized words!
    On the other hand, House at Pooh Corner is a terrific old NGDB song.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    I swear, I learn stuff around here almost every day, more often than not from some unexpected direction. For instance ... I never knew them Nitty Gritty types covered this song. Indeed, I've never heard anyone do it other than Kenny Loggins, who wrote it and had a pretty good-sized hit with it, from Loggins & Messina's first album. I'm wondering, for you to mention them and not him, did you not know it's his song? It's strongly associated with him. I also didn't know they recorded it, even put it out as the follow-up single to "Mr. Bojangles." But I never heard it by them, even though they did it first. I learn stuff around here ...

    I'll give them credit for changing the line, "I can't seem to find my way back to the wood" to "I can't find my way to the Three Acre Wood." Clever reference, that.

    Here's a charming video, with some delightful animation. And also some glimpses at the book's text before and after the song, which illustrate Louise NM's point about Milne's capricious use of capitalization.

    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Quote Originally Posted by NDO View Post
    On the other hand, House at Pooh Corner is a terrific old NGDB song.
    Yes, but H.A.P.C. is not great for your continued music appreciation - once you've read it, it's difficult to ignore how much great music has a 'tiddly-pom' (copyright JM Barrie) resolution at the end of each section.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Actually I Was reMiss IN not mentioning Loggins as the author of HAPC...I heard it first on a NGDB album and always ASSumed it was theirs until I saw the sheet music for it a few months ago. My sincere apologies to Mr. Loggins for the error.

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    Default Re: Latest ignorant question: Bout like "boot" or like boxing mat

    Kenny rang me, said don't worry, he understands, there's so much to be done. And as I said, if you hadn't said what you did, I'd have never known that bit of history about the song. So that's a plus.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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