Mandolin world vs fiddle world

[JeffD]

Mandolinists and mandolinners have perhaps some similar mental blocks. I am not sure. I know when I first ventured into the world of classical mandolin, I greatly under appreciated the scintillating highs that a mandolin can reach, favoring at the time the deep woody tones. Took me only a couple of days, and an online back and forth with a few really knowledgeable folks at the cafe, for me to move from a 1.4 mm pick to a 0.78 mm pick with more point to it, and other changes. Beyond different picks for different genres, I now have mandolins for the casual folk-old time-bluegrass kind of playing, and other mandolins for the more exact and scintillating classical playing. It has been an eye (ear?) opening journey.

As an aside, I prefer the "classical" mandolin for some of the Eastern European tunes and Klezmer music I like to dabble at. So even here there are exceptions.

OK so I use the term mandolinists for classical mandolin players, and every other kind of mandolin player I call mandolinners. I am sure I have screwed up this distinction from time to time, but this is my intention.

[JeffD]

And bridges. I know several many fiddlers who have flattened their bridge, making it much easier to get some of the three string "high lonesome" harmonies.

[DougC]

Arrgh! Don't talk about flattening bridges. My blood pressure rises very quickly. I do 'custom' violin bridges for professional musicians and some shops here. There was a time when I tried that kind of flattened bridge and it did make double stop playing a little easier. However it is at the expense of changing the sound of the instrument as well as making it harder to bow things for 'other than double stops'. And you have to know the instrument well in order to play it. Peter Ostroushko pointed this out, "I'd rather have a standard setup so if I borrow a fiddle, it will be close to what I'm used to." RIP buddy.

[catmandu2]

My hardanger of course has a very flat bridge as is custom - I have difficulty transitioning between hdgfl and std fdl. Frankly I've had more difficulty with this than with any other instruments .. i.e. gtr/banjo/mndln and all the other pluckies. Even the difficulty of different key spacing on accordions, and string spacing on harps, there's something about the radius variation on fdl bridge that presents more difficulty.

A looser tensioned bow will help with multi-stringing on fdl

[JeffD]

Arrgh! Don't talk about flattening bridges. My blood pressure rises very quickly. I do 'custom' violin bridges for professional musicians and some shops here. There was a time when I tried that kind of flattened bridge and it did make double stop playing a little easier. However it is at the expense of changing the sound of the instrument as well as making it harder to bow things for 'other than double stops'. And you have to know the instrument well in order to play it.

Indeed. Thus the need for several fiddles. Another acquisition syndrome.

[DougC]

Yes, that slight angle that changes when the violin bridge is flattened is makes it hard to adapt for bowing. I understand the situation well as I flattened my bridges myself. That work probably started my career in violin lutherie. If all one does is play double stops in a style of fiddling it can be O.K. Just don't hand your fiddle to someone else in a moment's notice.
This does bring up some other differences among folk fiddles and classical violinists. The bow, next to the bridge issue is the other one. Bows, even for experienced violin instructors are a mystery. The things can twist, have different balance points, have hair that does not 'work', lots of subtle quirks.

[Louise NM]

Like classical violinists do not use fine tuners, or if they do it is only on the e string. While fiddlers, often enough, use fine tuners on all the strings. The claim is that one can tell if the string is directly connected to the tail piece or not - or more precisely, only the more advanced and cultured and refined violinists have the perception and discernment and sensitivity to detect how much better a string direct to tail piece sounds and the refinement to care about it.

I myself, having spent much more time in the fiddle world than in the violin world, appreciate an instrument that is in tune, and if it takes fine tuners to get there, so be it.

Some of the really amazing violinists I have heard can get really amazing tone - and I think there may be a more things involved than merely eschewing fine tuners.

There are other factors with fine tuners.

Fiddlers traditionally used steel-core strings, which are next to impossible to tune with pegs alone. Before synthetic strings were introduced—Dominants, circa 1970—most classical violinists used wound gut for the lower three strings with a steel E. (The Russian school preferred steel As as well.) Gut strings are elastic enough that fine tuners are completely useless, and they are easily tuned with pegs.

These days, both fiddlers and classical players use synthetics a lot of the time. They are somewhere between gut and steel to tune—easy enough to tune accurately with a peg, but you can use fine tuners with them too. Tradition may play a part in one camp using four fine tuners and the other using one. There is also a deeply held conviction in the classical violin world that the added weight of the extra tuners in the tailpiece deadens the tone of a violin.

[catmandu2]

Yes, that slight angle that changes when the violin bridge is flattened is makes it hard to adapt for bowing. I understand the situation well as I flattened my bridges myself. That work probably started my career in violin lutherie. If all one does is play double stops in a style of fiddling it can be O.K. Just don't hand your fiddle to someone else in a moment's notice.
This does bring up some other differences among folk fiddles and classical violinists. The bow, next to the bridge issue is the other one. Bows, even for experienced violin instructors are a mystery. The things can twist, have different balance points, have hair that does not 'work', lots of subtle quirks.

Ya the adjustment here starts in the shoulder; elsewhere it's in the hand.

I'm having a dickens of a time with the only lightweight bow I currently have which I need for the lightweight hdgfl set up - it's terrible but can sound okay if I get the tension just right. It resisted today but I put up a tune I've been learning over on the fiddle forum - lots of problems fighting the bow and sounds terrible with squeaks and overtones - but I'm documenting the learning process.

[DougC]

The fiddlers / violinists with poor instruments, meaning the pegs have some problems with holding steady with friction. They resort to 'fine tuners' because they work!
The people with 'nice violins' have pegs that run smoothly and 'do their job', so they don't need 'fine' tuners.

As for the added weight of metal gizmos attached to tailpieces aimed at 'fine tuning', there are modern plastic or carbon fiber versions that reduce the weight. The violinists who are highly skilled and have expensive violins do notice that the weight makes a change. Computer science has shown the difference. However thoes Wittner tailpieces work for most everyone else.


As for bows. Bigger fiddles like violas and hardanger fiddles require a bit more mass and weight in order to 'excite' the strings. (just love that term, ha, ha). They are bigger and need a bit more 'push' to get them going.

[Tom Wright]

The fiddlers / violinists with poor instruments, meaning the pegs have some problems with holding steady with friction. They resort to 'fine tuners' because they work!
The people with 'nice violins' have pegs that run smoothly and 'do their job', so they don't need 'fine' tuners.

Steel strings, like the wire E all violinists use, require fine tuners. Even fiber-core strings like Dominant can benefit.
That said, there are pegs carried in metal sleeve bearings one can install. They can be adjusted for resistance.

Suspended mass behind the bridge damps vibration and loses volume, but a given wooden tailpiece may yield a pleasing tone. I liked a lightweight violin-size plastic tuner tailpiece on my viola, and some upright players are replacing the tailpiece with steel cables to reduce that unneeded weight.

[catmandu2]

Bigger fiddles like violas and hardanger fiddles require a bit more mass and weight in order to 'excite' the strings. (just love that term, ha, ha). They are bigger and need a bit more 'push' to get them going.

Hardingfele are typically smaller (mine is just a little over 11.5" SL) - thus the higher tuning and characteristic sound. Many folks use a Baroque type bow.

[Doug Brock]

Like classical violinists do not use fine tuners, or if they do it is only on the e string. While fiddlers, often enough, use fine tuners on all the strings. The claim is that one can tell if the string is directly connected to the tail piece or not - or more precisely, only the more advanced and cultured and refined violinists have the perception and discernment and sensitivity to detect how much better a string direct to tail piece sounds and the refinement to care about it.

I myself, having spent much more time in the fiddle world than in the violin world, appreciate an instrument that is in tune, and if it takes fine tuners to get there, so be it.

Some of the really amazing violinists I have heard can get really amazing tone - and I think there may be a more things involved than merely eschewing fine tuners.

Actually, the reason more classical violinists use one fine tuner and fiddlers tend to use four fine tuners is due to the kind of string used. Gut and synthetic core strings can be easily tuned with the pegs. Most people now use metal e-strings, so both camps use the fine tuners for that string. When metal core strings became popular (especially with fiddlers and folks musicians), it was helpful to have fine tuners on all four strings. (It is still common for new classical players to have tuners on all four strings even with synthetic core strings, and some classical players continue to use tune tuners.)

By the way, folks who use mechanical pegs might not have fine tuners at all! (I still like having fine tuners on the one violin I play that has mechanical tuners.)

[Doug Brock]

And bridges. I know several many fiddlers who have flattened their bridge, making it much easier to get some of the three string "high lonesome" harmonies.

And it isn’t just for three string harmonies. Some fiddlers feel that a less extreme slope on the bridge makes it faster and easier to jump between pairs of strings. Plenty of fiddlers use a traditionally shaped bridge though. Just a matter of preference.

[maxr]

Fine tuners on fiddles present several options. IMO the worst sounding option is usually fine tuners you fit to the tailpiece yourself. They're usually heavy chromed steel, and I think they do absorb some string vibration which might otherwise turn into sound. Then there are cast alu or composite tailpieces with built in tuners (Wittner or Thomastik), and wooden tailpieces with built in metal or even carbon tuners (Bois D'Harmonie and others, can be custom made and $$$s). I've used all of these, they work well and sound pretty good to excellent (but beware of cheap wood ones - some are made of dubious acoustic quality timber). I think you can usually hear the improvement on those over the added steel fine tuners. More recently, there are affordable tuning pegs with built in gearing, by Wittner. I have a set on an old (late 1700s) Baroque setup violin with plain gut strings. I think they work as well as any tailpiece mounted fine tuners (unless you like a really low geared tuner on the E), and they look like plain pegs from more than 3' away. Only gripe with those is, they're slower to initially tension new strings than ungeared plain pegs. I haven't tried the 'wind the string round the peg them push it through the hole' fitting method on a fiddle, might be a bit tricky. Also, dunno how well they work with 'Hard' high tension steel core strings

Re. string costs - there are fiddlers who like the steely, rough gritty 'character' fiddly sound you can get with Red Label strings (not a 'violinist' choice!), and they're certainly affordable. I've never got on with Dominant violin strings myself, but plenty of others do.

[catmandu2]

I have a fiddle with Reds that makes a great cajun fiddle - it's loud Ya, sometimes I think I like Doms, and just as often I don't.

How many of us are using guts? What kind of bow do you use? Max what are you using?

[maxr]

How many of us are using guts? What kind of bow do you use? Max what are you using?

When I was a kid playing mostly classical I used Pirastro Eudoxa or Olive Label gut core, they weren't so expensive then. On that fiddle (a nice but weather temperamental 1885 Collin-Mezin) they sounded great, but they required significant retuning and didn't last so well. I tried using them for ceilidh dances where temperature and humidity vary, they needed too much retuning. Synthetic cores like Evah Pirazzi, Dominant etc. needed regular checking but maybe just a touch to the tuners after every 3-4 dances. I've played fiddles strung with Thomastik or Spirocore strings that I hardly had to tune all night.

I have an old (late 17thC) Baroque setup violin with plain gut strings (including the E) and Wittner geared tuning pegs, tuned A = 440 (not say 415 like some Baroque groups). It doesn't seem to be much more (or less) sensitive to humidity and temperature than the Pirastro Olive wound gut strings I used at one time. I have a couple of 'snakehead' Baroque style modern bows, nothing too authentic (they have screw adjust frogs) or too short. I don't play this setup much at the moment, but I have the impression that violins adjust to the bows you play them with - at one time I used a 'snakehead' bow for playing Scottish dance band music. Synthetic strings are a relatively late innovation in the violin world- I have the impression that before end WW2, most classical violinists would have been playing on gut G D A (G possibly wound) with a metal or gut E (corrections?).

[catmandu2]

Ya that's my current hdgfl set-up - two guts and two steels, and of course the steels are lighter than std fiddle strings. I'm needing something lightweight, but I want to retain std length.

I just recently joined F-book and there's a hdgfl group I should canvass to help in my search. Problem is, I don't speak Norsk and therefore miss half the posts.

Cost - $60 for the 'cheap' set.

[maxr]

I've have a nyckelharpa, but I've never tried hardanger - it looks a lot of fun, with some great tunes. There's a Nyckelharpa Society of America that conducts business mostly in English, is there not a comparable Hardanger Society?

[Jim Garber]

Hardanger Fiddle Association of America: http://www.hfaa.org/

Back in the last century I took some hardingfele workshops with an American scholar of the music but never was able to acquire one. Had a borrowed nyckelharpa too but decided to play that music on the regular fiddle. Otherwise I go way too far afield musically and better for me to stick to fewer instruments. I am impressed by those among us who explore those corners.

[DougC]

One thing about steel strings and gut strings. (or synthetic strings vs gut) Gut strings respond 'slower' to bowing. It is not actually slower but they respond in a different way than modern strings. I've seen computer graphic audio studies on the differences and it gets complex real fast. But the point is that gut strings demand a little different approach to bowing.

[catmandu2]

I've have a nyckelharpa, but I've never tried hardanger - it looks a lot of fun, with some great tunes. There's a Nyckelharpa Society of America that conducts business mostly in English, is there not a comparable Hardanger Society?

Ya the FB site is the HFAA's. Hdgfl is very different from standard fiddle - everything about it, except the bowing I suppose, yet this tends to be a bit different too. They say to think about hdgfl as a different instrument altogether. I've found this to be very much the case.

Another thing I like about 'fiddle world' is the heterogeneity: I used to fiddle Scottish tunes on doublebass, and loved it. I wish I could still but my hands can't take it anymore. I assumed I'd get a cello but never did.

[maxr]

One thing about steel strings and gut strings. (or synthetic strings vs gut) Gut strings respond 'slower' to bowing.

Yes - it's interesting that people like e.g. Guillermo Carmignola can not only play really fast on a 'period' setup violin, he can produce close to a modern sound on it

[DougC]

It is interesting that Guillermo Carmignola uses a 'transitional bow' in the fast passages in Vivaldi. It is the bow used before the modern 'Tourte' bow that we know today.

Lisa Grodin has a wonderful bow tutorial



My wife is a founding member of Lyra Baroque Orchestra. And in a way, I live a 'charmed life' because I can listen to her baroque violin at home. And lately her nephew has become one of the 'rising stars' in Baroque music, Noah Strick in Philharmonia Baroque in San Fransisco.

Among our friends one performs on Rebec, and another plays an Erhu. So we're no strangers to 'fiddles of the world'. But I was still amazed at this Violincello Da Spalla.

[catmandu2]

Among our friends one performs on Rebec, and another plays an Erhu. So we're no strangers to 'fiddles of the world'. But I was still amazed at this Violincello Da Spalla.

I felt obliged to post it here in the event that others look in - for I was once told on a thread here that - "(these) are not fiddles."

For me the most evocative of them is sarangi and love to listen to it. I was oh so close to acquiring a dilruba (basically a fretted sarangi, not mentioned in the vid) and had to talk myself out of it many times. At this stage in life, and with everything I've got going already, I thought it best to avoid a deep dive into classical Indian music.

Wrt Bach: I've cheated and played them on guitar most of my life. Otherwise, I certainly would have gotten a cello!

[DougC]

Catmandu2 Don't worry there is sill time to consider a Violincello Da Spalla.

We will have to invent a new acquisition syndrome title for you. MAS, GAS, VAS (I give up...).

I'm sticking to my mandola and violin. And you know I listen to all kinds of stuff.

My favorite performer right now, Beiliang Zhu. She plays on a 5 string baroque cello.