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Thread: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

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    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
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    Default Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    I know this has been discussed, in one place or another but I am wanting to learn if there is any significant structural difference between them, except male vs birch and dthe "bling" of binding and pearl? i.e., should would, could, an A sound as good as a A4 or any other A model? I look at them and really do not care a hoot about thte stuff but I do like sound and quality.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    I think that many players have encountered A-0, A, A-1, A-jnr which were brilliant as well as some A4s which were no good. I find the maple better than birch but other than that, in terms of actual sound, I doubt there is much difference. Set up and strings can make or break an instrument. I had a fabulous A-0 many years ago. I've played and owned a couple of A4s which were nothing like as good.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Virtually all A-4's made before 1923 were also birch, although sellers often mis-identify them as maple.
    Some of the snakehead A-4's indeed appear to be maple, while others are birch. A-4's from the later 1920's and early '30's appear to be a mixed bag.

    My personal experience with Gibson A's has been that the particular model and level of trim has no influence on the quality of sound. I have played great instruments of every model level, also poor ones, and many that were in-between.

    The only structural differences I have noticed are that some, but not all of the upper level models have nicer looking tops than some of the lower end models. We do sometimes see 3 and 4 piece tops or backs on some of the low models. I do not recall coming across a top or back in more than two pieces in an A-4.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    As some wise person once noted, "Gibson's main consistency was its inconsistency."

    In my experience, the most consistent years for me are 1920 through the Loar era ~1925. I have yet to play a snakehead A-4 that I didn't lust after and only the price and the fact that someone else owned it and would never sell probably stopped me from owning. There are, of course, some excellent teen models. My very first Gibson was a 1919 A-3 whiteface which I played for many years. I did love the sound of that one plus it was made the same year my dad was born.

    But I do agree with rcc56 that the wide range of quality (mediocre to outstanding) existed throughout the Gibson line but that it was somewhat better overall in those years above.

    I played at plain Sheraton brown A mode at RetroFret the last time I was there prob in 2019 that I loved the sound of. Nothing special to look at but it had something. My wallet told me to behave.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Well, this is just great! I'm so glad to see this, even now, after it's too late. You see, I recently pulled the trigger on a 1916 A-4, assuming it would be a step or two up from the plain A's I've been playing forever, particularly the last dozen years. I'm fine with both of them - great-sounding instruments, both of them, and they play fine, too. But the A-4 sure looks swanky, and also its year and finish are perfect matches for my H-2 mandola. So I didn't put a whole lot of thought into the decision, assuming it unnecessary. Now I'm seeing this ... Well, OK, it is what it is. But I have to wonder - Birch? Really? How do its sonic qualities compare with maple or spruce, or whatever they used on most of the instruments they produced? I'm with the OP - sound is the important consideration, much more so than looks. What's the deal with birch? I'll find out next week when it arrives, but in the meantime, now I'm wondering ...
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    But I have to wonder - Birch? Really? How do its sonic qualities compare with maple or spruce, or whatever they used on most of the instruments they produced? I'm with the OP - sound is the important consideration, much more so than looks. What's the deal with birch?
    You most likely already know the answer to your questions from your other Gibson ovals, as birch seems to have been used on most of the instruments they produced during that era. And it worked, where sound is the important consideration, much more so than looks. Less figure for less figures.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    In 1983, Flatiron announced their carved instruments. I traveled to Mandolin Brothers to try out the two A-5s they had. One was A5-1 and the fancier A5-2. As I recall they were both very similar in sound and playability. I loved both. The A5-2 was $100 more. But the back was more flamed and it had binding on the headstock. But I looked at it and decided to splurge. Sometimes it is not only the joy of playing but also the joy of looking. We are after all human and can derive pleasure from all aspects of the things we live with. Don’t kick yourself! I love the look of an A-4 as well as many of the other models and makers out there.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    You most likely already know the answer to your questions from your other Gibson ovals, as birch seems to have been used on most of the instruments they produced during that era. And it worked, where sound is the important consideration, much more so than looks. Less figure for less figures.
    Oh! Good. Phew! I thought they had spruce tops. All this talk about birch ... I don't remember seeing that before. And yes - the music is in the ears, not the eyes. And that always has been my reasoning - these plain A's were made with the same materials and craftsmanship as more expensive models, just with fewer frills, even with no logo.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Yup. Will happily have my A Jr. go toe to toe with about any other out there. And it's been through the mill. Repaired top, cracked sides. It's ugly but sounds great. And while I'm pretty sure the back is birch it does have a nice flame to it. Although that could be the stain used at the time.

    The only other difference I know is right around 1910 the necks were pretty big. My bandmate (and mentor) has an A-1 from that year and he now has a tough time playing later Gibsons because the necks are too small for his taste. (And I'm not talking just the Loar era.)
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Will happily have my A Jr. go toe to toe with about any other out there. And it's been through the mill. Repaired top, cracked sides. It's ugly but sounds great.
    Right? Mine's been played so much that pumpkin finish is closer to Sheraton brown.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Oh! Good. Phew! I thought they had spruce tops.
    Spruce tops yes, but often birch in lieu of maple backs and sides.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Most folks couldn’t tell birch from maple if they were hit in the head with a board. Characteristics are very similar. When I was an apprentice 40+ years ago, even the old timers who’d run thousands of feet could be fooled once in a while. You’d often find a plank of the wrong species mixed in with a unit of the designated species, either way. Birch was cheaper but can be very highly figured and quite difficult to machine.
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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    And birch is perfectly good tone wood, and many very good instruments were built with it in the early 20th century.
    Another good, but overlooked tone wood is cherry.
    As the supply of tropical hardwoods continues to dwindle, I think we will see birch and cherry become more common. And while there is no great shortage of good maple at this time, that could also change.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    A couple of things that occur to me about old Gibsons: one is the difference made by the truss rods after they came into use (1922 or so?). The necks got narrower and less substantial, and maybe the rod also affects body resonance. I've only had two Gibsons, an A-2 from 1919 and an AJr from 1924. The A-2's neck width was 1-1/4 in., the AJr's 1-1/16th. I liked the wider neck, but have adjusted to the narrow one.

    I also wonder about the standard applied in selecting spruce for the various models. My A-2 had a uniformly wide grain, maybe 6 or 7 lines to the inch. We're usually told a tight even grain is best— though a very fine repairman told me once that wider is better. But my AJr has about 8 lines per inch at the treble edge, and close to forty over on the bass side. (In fact I've only just noticed now that it's a one-piece top!) This might be another example of Gibson using everything they had, and putting the least "conventional" wood on the cheaper models. For that matter, my AJr's ebony fingerboard shows both heartwood and sapwood. Odd look, but I have no complaints about it as an instrument.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Well, I guess I started all this. I don't want to give the impressin I don't like pretty, I do! I have some Northfields and a Pomeroy and they are very pretty. BUT, I also like "plain jane". I like the look of old fiddles. to the untrained eye (mine) they are all so much alike and have no binding or pearl. Somehow I like that too! But, I do like pretty I bought a Pick Up truck not too long ago. I had in mind dthat I want a "plain jane" truck, but then I found out that Prettry was in and plain was out. To get no carpet and rubber on the floor you had to make a special order. amazing. So, I got pretty. But in mandolins, i like pretty and plain! In playing I am a lot more plain than pretty, too!

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    This is an interesting discussion.
    .
    Now let’s talk about the soundboard. The attached chart is what Gibson reportedly used to select the spruce tops in 1923. It has been posted before. It is below for your convenience.

    Notice that the higher grade models used the better grade of spruce. More grains per inch means stronger wood that could presumably be carved thinner or differently, this would affect the sound quality. Every instrument is different so I don’t subscribe fully to this theory but that may have been Gibson’s thinking. Also, notice that the better models use spruce sourced from West Virginia which would have been Adirondack spruce, the lower models use spruce from Oregon which would likely have been Sitka spruce.

    The Gibson catalogs allude to the fact that in addition to ornamentation the choice of wood improved as the instrument model increased. The low end models having wide grained tops sometimes made of as many as four pieces jointed together, the higher models with tight grained two pieces tops or the best material. Also notice the grain angles indicated for the various grades. Perfectly quartered spruce would have the grain almost perpendicular to the top surface and was reserved for the best models.

    Here are some examples. Notice the spruce top on the DY (Army Navy Special) in my collection, it has incredibly wide grain and not straight at all. One step up from “cigar box” wood almost! It plays well but is quieter than the carved models but for other reasons. It is next to an A-Jr and an A3 with increasingly finer tops.

    Let’s keep the discussion going.

    Mark

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    I love to hear all you'al talk about this stuff. You amaze me with how much you know. Thanks, But Bruce mentioned that the least conventional woods went on the cheaper models and that surely must be a fact. But when it gets to how they sound, do we know that a screwed up grain will produce an instrument with less sound potential? I sure don't know. But, I do know it looks better. And, looks means a lot! But, it don't man everything. Does it? Wouldn't it be something if only the really good players had all the pretty instruments? I have seen some ugly, great sounding instruments being played well by great players. I have also seen (maybe in my mirror) some pretty instruments in the hands of those not so capable in their playing. I have also seen some great shotguns in the hand of someone who couldn't hit the side of a barn. I used to hunt with a man who had an old "long Tom, single shot 12 guage", it was ugly, but he seemed to never miss.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkELynch View Post
    Notice that the higher grade models used the better grade of spruce. More grains per inch means stronger wood that could presumably be carved thinner or differently, this would affect the sound quality. Every instrument is different so I don’t subscribe fully to this theory but that may have been Gibson’s thinking.
    Might it have been more visually appealing for pricier instruments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkELynch View Post
    Also, notice that the better models use spruce sourced from West Virginia which would have been Adirondack spruce, the lower models use spruce from Oregon which would likely have been Sitka spruce.
    Engelmann too I would imagine.
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    Exclamation Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Basic issue with making something of wood, a natural material , is it's not all the same ..

    A friend Managing the local music store , back when we had one,
    went to the Eastman Importer's warehouse ..

    Auditioned over a dozen, playing them , .. and then said .. 'ship this one'..





    [Ok it was not about old Gibson A's , I have a 'Sheraton' brown one & an A4 they are quite different...


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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    More grains per inch may make for more visually appealing wood, but it doesn't have any bearing on tone or strength.

    I see violins and celli that have tops that look like they were better suited for fence posts, but they ended up on the top of an instrument that sells for a healthy 6-digit price.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson A, AJr. A 2,3,4 Mandolis

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkELynch View Post
    This is an interesting discussion.
    .
    Now let’s talk about the soundboard. The attached chart is what Gibson reportedly used to select the spruce tops in 1923. It has been posted before. It is below for your convenience.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I’m surprised that they allowed such variation from 90 degrees for the tops. They obviously did it for the yield (Lower cost). I remember reading a softwood grade book from 1928 that had tighter grading rules for ladder stock made from Doug fir.

    I’m curious now as to how they purchased that material, ie, did they select or saw logs, buy cants or what.
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