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Thread: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

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    Default Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Put my mandolin down next to my 12 string guitar today, and thought - hmm. What if I replaced one G string with a standard unwound A string tuned to octave G, and replaced one D with a plain E string, tuned to octave D. Does it work, what's it called, and does anyone have a YouTube link of somebody playing that?

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    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    That octave mating of the wound strings was used by a lot of the African-American string bands of the 20's and 30's to brighten up the tonality of the mandolin or mandolin-banjo. Some Latin American instruments are also set up with the octave pairs. Joe Craven uses it frequently, I believe.

    When set up with octave pairs, the higher strings of each pair may not intonate accurately. If you have a spare mandolin, having the Nut and Saddle adjusted properly would solve that problem, but I don't think many of the string band mandolin players did that.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Soper View Post
    That octave mating of the wound strings was used by a lot of the African-American string bands of the 20's and 30's to brighten up the tonality of the mandolin or mandolin-banjo...When set up with octave pairs, the higher strings of each pair may not intonate accurately.
    Thanks John. I guess the acoustic 12 string guitar has the same problem, as all the 12s I've seen only have 6 compensation flats on the saddle (I think a few electrics have 12 saddles?). I just checked a Guild 12 acoustic, and on courses 5 and 6, the octave string is noticeably sharper than the low string at the 12th fret. Not many of us play up there on the 5th and 6th of an acoustic. The higher guitar pitches with thinner wound strings appear to be less of a problem. a 12 string guitar has nearly twice as much vibrating string length, dunno whether that would make pair tuning problems less than a mandolin or not?
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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    I used to see Martin, Bogan and Armstrong a lot in the 70s. Wish I had sat on the front row, but I had other things on my mind. They were a cool black string band, a very uncommon sight even though I grew up in the ethnic section of Cincinnati. Howard "Louie Bluie" Armstrong played a LOUD old Gibson A model then, with octave G and D strings. It's funny that I can't find much, if any video of him playing an old Gibson.
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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Found some vid of Howard apparently tuning then playing an octave tuned mandolin, it's clearer from about 39:30 on this:



    Fiddlers - be amazed at his 'sawing' blues fiddle style in this vid, it's great (tuning's interesting...) ! The octave tuning sounds interesting, it certainly seems to give the lower two sets some sparkle.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Sorry to digress from the OP: I remember going to see Martin, Bogan & Armstrong multiple times - lived across the street from the bar/restaurant that would book them. First time I was a bit disappointed because they were billed as a "Chicago Blues Band" and they sure didn't sound like Muddy Waters! However, I quickly became a convert. I think you can still find CDs of their material and there was a movie called "Louie Bluie" that came out several years ago about Howard Armstrong. Last time I saw Howard was in the early 2000's at MerleFest & at about 90 years of age he still played an extremely varied collection of string band music on fiddle and mandolin.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Does it work, what's it called, and does anyone have a YouTube link of somebody playing that?
    Some of the early ragtime & blues string band players called it "high strung mandolin" according to Steve James.

    https://youtu.be/wp6sVb8Ap8o

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Another issue will be that the thinner octave strings will sit down a bit compared to the bigger string which can make picking more difficult. A new nut and bridge saddle will solve the problem though and you can work on the intonation at the same time.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    I have done that for some ragtime playing, and the results are pretty cool. It is a pain to do and so I would pick a second mandolin to be kept that way. Anything to justify MAS.
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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    By chance this came up a few days ago:

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...octave-strings
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevin View Post
    Another issue will be that the thinner octave strings will sit down a bit compared to the bigger string which can make picking more difficult. A new nut and bridge saddle will solve the problem though and you can work on the intonation at the same time.
    Maybe some of these issues are correct theoretically but less trouble in practice? If you swapped an A string for one mandolin G, you'd have a .015" sitting in the bottom of a bridge slot next to say a .040", a difference of .025" - 1/40", or in metric something over 1/2mm (if I got that right). Would that very very noticeable? I dunno - I'd have to try it, but I suspect my picking's not that precise. Working a wooden bridge saddle to include individual string compensation between a mandolin pair of strings would be interesting. I don't know that anyone bothers to do it on 12 string acoustic guitars (anyone know?), although my son has a baritone 12 electric with a 12 saddle bridge. The other thing is that octave stringing produces a kind of 'jangle' (very noticeable on Guild 12s - the Leo Kottke sound) which I suspect hides minor tuning imperfections. I can't really tell from old recordings, because some of those guys seem happy with 'good enough' tuning

    Anybody who's done this - did you make these adjustments or not, and how did it work out?
    Eastman MD305 mandolin
    Kentucky KM250 mandolin

    2 x Fiddles, 1 x 5 string viola, 1 x 5 string octave viola, 2 X nyckelharpas
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    1 X Highland bagpipes
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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Anybody who's done this - did you make these adjustments or not, and how did it work out?[/QUOTE]

    I have not tried it on a mandolin yet. When I set up an octave mandolin as a bouzouki I allways make these adjustments, new compensation corected bridge, new nut. It works out well. When I build a bouzouki from scratch I also change the braces and graduation of the top. The bouzouki also has a longer scale so it is not an exact compairson but aiming the intire build of the instrument tworad the intended strings is a big consideration. I am working on a nylon string mandolin for this tuning. According to a very helpful gentelman at Aquila Strings in Italy the math for this tuning does not work out well for Mandolin. They do not have strings for it. However he sugests using the A and E strings along with other changes may be 'good enough'.
    Last edited by MrMoe; Feb-06-2021 at 10:33am. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMoe View Post
    Anybody who's done this - did you make these adjustments or not, and how did it work out?
    I didn't myself, first because, I like the raw sound of early 20th Century blues and ragtime music -- I suspect that many of the musicians that I admire never heard of callipers. Second, I'm the kind of person who feels a sense of accomplishment after changing a light bulb, and who doesn't mind a layer of dust on the tool box. I needed to make some bodily adjustment when switching to octave tuning, having to change the finger pressure a bit, but nothing major. However, others have different standards and different tastes regarding sound. No one's asking me to be guest performer with the symphony orchestra!
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Default Re: Whats this tuning called, any YouTubes?

    I just tuned my Eastman 305 this way - it's interesting. It seems to make the mandolin louder brighter and maybe richer on chords - and because there are more high octave notes, it might require less effort to cut through lower pitch rhythm guitar etc, in a band. Playing tunes, you may lose a bit of volume on the G and D pairs, but the increased top end might make up for it. How the double octave sound on the lower 2 pairs works for tunes is something I don't have an opinion about yet.

    Strings - the Eastman 305 standard set is 11-15-26-40. I bought a set of 11.5-16-26-41 , using the 11.5 for octave D, and the 16 for octave G. According to D'Addario's String Tension Pro web page (a great resource for string noodling), that would be just slighty less tension than the standard 11-40 set. The higher octave strings on the G and D don't overpower the lower octaves. I think tuning is in practice close enough for anything but classical, and you wouldn't use this for classical anyway. The octave effect is to my ear different from octave pairs on 12 string guitar - my Guild 12 'chimes', but the mandolin doesn't - the octave pairs have more 'ping' than before. I don't notice any great problems with string fit, even though I haven't messed wiith nut and bridge slots at all. To be continued....maybe.
    Last edited by maxr; Feb-12-2021 at 1:49pm.

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