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Thread: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

  1. #51
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Learning a tune in all twelve keys is not necessary and best left to those with endless time for wood shedding.

    If you really learn a song you are not memorizing chords but learning how the song works. Learn the cadences. Take Autumn Leaves in G/Em.

    It starts with a ii V I in the relative major key then a quick IV chord followed by a ii V i in the relative minor. Those two cadences make up most of the tune. Now you learn the form AABA. That is what is what is meant by really learning the tune. It makes learning subsequent ones much easier.

    Frank Vignola has a great tip for internalizing a melody. Learn it horizontally on one string (as the melody allows) so you can internalize the intervals of the melody...whole step half step octave etc. Knowing the melody is also key to really learning the song. Anyway after many years of trying to learn how to play jazz and the many videos, courses and books I have purchased that is my takeaway. Stick to a couple of tunes that you really like and know the how the chord structure and melody works.

    Incidentally the OP seems to have checked out of this thread.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    Learning a tune in all twelve keys is not necessary and best left to those with endless time for wood shedding.
    I was not necessarily suggesting we follow the Parker example literally!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post

    Incidentally the OP seems to have checked out of this thread.
    I've seen that happen when folks get an idea of what is involved in learning to play jazz. I had a folk fiddler friend that wanted to learn to play swing - really improvise.

    I asked if she knew all her major and minor scales in all keys. She took a while to make it to her first lesson!

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    Learning a tune in all twelve keys is not necessary and best left to those with endless time for wood shedding.

    If you really learn a song you are not memorizing chords but learning how the song works. Learn the cadences. Take Autumn Leaves in G/Em.

    It starts with a ii V I in the relative major key then a quick IV chord followed by a ii V i in the relative minor. Those two cadences make up most of the tune. Now you learn the form AABA. That is what is what is meant by really learning the tune. It makes learning subsequent ones much easier.

    Frank Vignola has a great tip for internalizing a melody. Learn it horizontally on one string (as the melody allows) so you can internalize the intervals of the melody...whole step half step octave etc. Knowing the melody is also key to really learning the song. Anyway after many years of trying to learn how to play jazz and the many videos, courses and books I have purchased that is my takeaway. Stick to a couple of tunes that you really like and know the how the chord structure and melody works.

    Incidentally the OP seems to have checked out of this thread.
    It's much more important for horn than string players to work in all keys. With strings you have the visual element and if not using open strings, Ab is not much different from Gb. That's not true for horn players, but i think very few shed all tunes in all keys. Blues, yes, and many work some phrases or patterns around the complete circle yes.

    The key, i think, is recognizing the very few harmonic devices used in standard songs. It's really not as difficult to move keys once you understand this.

    Chad LB explains much better than I can. I apologize for the saxophone content.


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  7. #54
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    The key, i think, is recognizing the very few harmonic devices used in standard songs. It's really not as difficult to move keys once you understand this.
    Yes! We are saying the same thing.

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    Incidentally the OP seems to have checked out of this thread.
    It seems that way, but I think he is actually reading what's being discussed and absorbing the information. It looks his MO or style is to start a thread by asking a question, and then not ring in again. I deduce that from observing he has posted five times since joining, each one the start of a thread. That's fine; that's certainly one way to learn, especially if you're new at something. He's not new to playing music, far from it, just new to the mandolin. Personally, I prefer to see a thread starter post from time to time, to let contributors know their efforts are appreciated, and lend some direction via feedback to the discussion, asking questions which the discussion may have inspired. But to each his/her own. I'm enjoying the discussion, learning a fair amount while sharing a few words of (hopefully) wisdom gained over the years.
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  11. #56
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    more random observations

    Lester Young is credited hear and there with pointing out that knowing the LYRICS to a tune is another essential component of successful improvisation.

    Charlie Parker's contributions to jazz harmony and spontaneous melodic creation would not have occurred without internalizing the truths of all twelve keys as well as the mechanical ability to access them on his horn(s). He worked mostly on alto sax, an Eb transposing instrument. He also on occasion played tenor which is a Bb transposing instrument. Right there you're already at or close to being conversant in all 12 keys, and he was extremely conversant. Recently heard a quote from Dexter Gordon pointing out that Bird was completely up on all the pop and show tunes of his day as well as his own jazz compositions.

    the guy i heard say "you don't know a tune until you can play it in all 12 keys" was guitarist George van Eps, in his guitar tutorial "Harmonic Mechanisms for guitar", (still in print i think). He was also very interested in polyphonic harmony. I still think I might try that someday, learning a tune in all 12 keys.

    I don't think I'll ever forget the look on the face of a jazz buddy of mine playing San Antonio Rose in D and A on his cornet. So for him E and B. He's a great musician so he sounded great but he grimaced and laughed the whole way...

    Learning things in all 12 keys may be unnecessary, but it doesn't hurt anything, it's never a waste of time, and it's easier to do on mandolin than any other instrument

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  13. #57

    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post

    Lester Young is credited hear and there with pointing out that knowing the LYRICS to a tune is another essential component of successful improvisation.
    I've heard that from a lot of players.

    I used to sing standards playing tenor/plectrum banjo. I thought it was pretty hokey and did it just to be entertaining/performing. But those years and all those standards were some of the best jazz education I had. It did take a lot of years of listening/learning.

    Bird was sui generis. No wonder he compelled everyone to try to emulate him.

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Another good place to start would to buy the whole reissue series of Mandolin World News and read all of Don Stiernberg's jazz articles.

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    I have just been dipping my toe into this for a while but am not real far along. One adjustment I found you will have to make from a bluegrass or traditional music background is that you have to learn to play in flatted keys. It helped me a lot playing in a band for a while with sax and horn players so I was forced to learn some of it. The bluegrassers will often change keys to a more friendly key like Doc Watson did changing Beaumont Rag from the traditional key of F to C. Jazz is primarily written in horn keys like F, Bb, Eb, Ab.
    To my ears he's palying it in the key of D, capoed at the 2nd fret. I guess he chose D because he liked that range, and capoed for some special effect. Not sure what people mean by friendly or hostile keys (I can't hear the difference) but on that tune my favored key on both guitar (and mandolin) is definitely F; I like that range better than D or C, and F offers a wealth of beautiful closed form 3- or 4-finger chords for accompaniment in first position, more so than C or D.

    I believe anyone serious about jazz mando or guitar should begin by familiarizing himself with all 12 keys, some standard progressions and modulations on just about any kind of material before specializing in jazz.

    Here is a list of the key centers visited by a number of standards:

    All the Things: Ab, C, Eb, G
    Cherokee: Bb, B, A, G
    Body and Soul: Db, D, C
    Joy Spring: F, F#, G

    Four songs, 12 keys.

    (No, you shouldn't start with these)

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Not sure what people mean by friendly or hostile keys
    Usually when a string player - typically a mandolinist or guitarist - refers to "easy", "hard", "friendly or hostile" keys, they mean which keys use the most open strings, 1st position chord shapes, and allow for the simplest left hand fingerings and least use of finger 4.

    Thus A or G is an "easy" key, Ab/G# is "hard".

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    I believe anyone serious about jazz mando or guitar should begin by familiarizing himself with all 12 keys, some standard progressions and modulations on just about any kind of material before specializing in jazz.

    Here is a list of the key centers visited by a number of standards:

    All the Things: Ab, C, Eb, G
    Cherokee: Bb, B, A, G
    Body and Soul: Db, D, C
    Joy Spring: F, F#, G

    Four songs, 12 keys.
    Good point. Glad you mentioned "Body and Soul".

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    If someone has never played Jazz or improvised before, the first tune I start folks with is a two (I V7) chord version of Mack The Knife. When they are comfortable with that, add the IIm7 chord in.

    Next is something like Lady Be Good (basic 4 chord version) or Sweet Sue. Then onto dominant 7 circle progressions like Sweet Georgia Brown or Right or Wrong. After that Rhythm changes.

    There is no "correct" order to learn anything. Just have fun!!
    What about the vi7 chord in Mack the Knife? To my ears it's essential.

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    more random observations

    Lester Young is credited hear and there with pointing out that knowing the LYRICS to a tune is another essential component of successful improvisation.

    Charlie Parker's contributions to jazz harmony and spontaneous melodic creation would not have occurred without internalizing the truths of all twelve keys as well as the mechanical ability to access them on his horn(s). He worked mostly on alto sax, an Eb transposing instrument. He also on occasion played tenor which is a Bb transposing instrument. Right there you're already at or close to being conversant in all 12 keys, and he was extremely conversant. Recently heard a quote from Dexter Gordon pointing out that Bird was completely up on all the pop and show tunes of his day as well as his own jazz compositions.

    the guy i heard say "you don't know a tune until you can play it in all 12 keys" was guitarist George van Eps, in his guitar tutorial "Harmonic Mechanisms for guitar", (still in print i think). He was also very interested in polyphonic harmony. I still think I might try that someday, learning a tune in all 12 keys.

    I don't think I'll ever forget the look on the face of a jazz buddy of mine playing San Antonio Rose in D and A on his cornet. So for him E and B. He's a great musician so he sounded great but he grimaced and laughed the whole way...

    Learning things in all 12 keys may be unnecessary, but it doesn't hurt anything, it's never a waste of time, and it's easier to do on mandolin than any other instrument
    I´ve found that San Antonio Rose works splendidly (on mandolin) in Ab/Eb, which is the key that Tommy Duncan sang in. I play it just to keep that key alive.

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  23. #63
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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Usually when a string player - typically a mandolinist or guitarist - refers to "easy", "hard", "friendly or hostile" keys, they mean which keys use the most open strings, 1st position chord shapes, and allow for the simplest left hand fingerings and least use of finger 4.

    Thus A or G is an "easy" key, Ab/G# is "hard".



    Good point. Glad you mentioned "Body and Soul".
    Yes, probably true, yet I've seen the key of F referred to, on the Cafè as "strange". On mando it's just as "easy" as C and G, in the sense you describe.. On guitar, the C and F major scales are the only ones that can played on the first three frets only (allowing open strings), an observation that help me move out of first position. Chords? Well, you don't need all six strings to form a chord.

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Learn this, all you need to know.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Where to start with Jazz Mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    What about the vi7 chord in Mack the Knife? To my ears it's essential.
    I would say so! Also the I6 and the V9. There's a melody note that goes with them, is indeed driving the chord selection.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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