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Thread: Learning to read Rhythm

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    There are some much more accomplished musicians posting here than myself, and I 100% endorse their more studious/academic approaches. But, LISTEN, and play along with recordings of songs you want to play. I endorse using a metronome, but prefer to play along with recordings of bands (who often have click tracks in their ears or are playing with drum machines). I’m the adult supervision for the youth praise band at church and will play with songs on Spotify for hours to get “performance” ready. I’ve also been playing a lot of Jason Isbell and DBT songs on guitar (they’re really good, but also accessible), inspired in part by the Cooley/Hood/Isbell live album recently released. But, I’ve been gravitating to the versions of those recordings that I know (in part because they’re playing around with rhythms and solos on the live album). When you get really serious get a bass…or a drum kit…
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  2. #27
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    It’s an important technical exercise, and you have to get serious about it.

    If you can learn hundreds of fiddle tunes off by heart, then you can definitely learn 32 simple strum patterns for double stops etc.
    But you have to give each pattern a name and sort of dance them, really feel them.
    And remember that if you know the patterns already, then reading them is so much easier.
    Have fun!!


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  3. #28
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Has anyone mentioned the importance of using a metronome? It will be very helpful with complex rhythms, syncopation.
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by A-board View Post
    ... anyone mentioned the importance of using a metronome? It will be very helpful ...
    ... or would be if every dang one of them wasn't broken, ya know, speeding up & slowing down?
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  6. #30
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by CES View Post
    I endorse using a metronome, but prefer to play along with recordings of bands (who often have click tracks in their ears or are playing with drum machines)
    What is a click track? Are you saying that people performing in bands may have an actual headset or earbud with a metronome track while they are playing !?!

  7. #31
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    They’re often used in the recording studio, he’s playing along with recordings.
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  9. #32
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post

    Another thing that helps is to sing it, and find or create a phrase that matches the rhythm. "Watermelon watermelon apple apple pear" or "I wanna slice of pizza" or some such.
    I found these. I hope they help. Things like this really help me.

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  11. #33
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Thanks Jeff, I had a good laugh looking at these and then suddenly realised they’re actually really good.
    Will print them out.
    I like that the breakfast/yogurt rhythms are quite similar, and hotdog is perfect!

  12. #34
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Those are great, Jeff

    Some thoughts on OP …

    There’s a bit of a distinction between playing rhythm as opposed to playing lead with stringed instruments, playing rhythm usually meaning to Comp or accompany in a rhythmic and harmonic fashion, while playing lead is to play melodically - the melody, solos, fills. I assumed the OP was concerned with the former: Reading rhythm for comping.

    That may have been a false assumption, because of course there is the rhythmic element of the melody itself, which is usually pretty easily notated with note values and markings on the sheet.
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  13. #35
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Another thing is that a lot of tunes have repeating melodic riffs in different patterns, and these patterns can set up rhythmic themes.

    This is one of the reasons why some people, fiddlers for example get upset with people who play the bodhran. It's not the bodhran player’s fault, it's just that they don't necessarily know the rhythmic patterns of each tune. So when the bodhran plays over the top, if they play simply then it flattens the overall rhythm out, and if they play with more complexity then it makes the overall (intended) rhythm sound muddy.
    (‘intended’, meaning the rhythm that the melodic instrumentalists had in mind)
    Last edited by Simon DS; Nov-15-2021 at 9:31am.

  14. #36
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    I don't know anything about the book specifically referenced in the original post. The title seems a bit over the top, as does the description on Amazon. But the book may be of some value and get one going pursuing fruitful paths. My rule of thumb is that if a book, or seminar, or workshop, gives me at least two great ideas, it was worth it. So I suspect with that criteria, the book is likely worth it, and may be well worth it.
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Man, I wish I could help you. I can't. I haven't actually "read rhythm" since playing drums in the marching band in elementary school.

    I am a proponent of feeling rhythm, and imitating what others do to find my own style. I started this as a preteen playing guitar. Richie Havens was the biggest revelation. Great rhythm and strong alternating pattern with the groove, using lots of muting here and there to suss out cool rhythmic patterns. Trying to imitate what Richie was doing got me on the right path, and all the more nuanced rhythm playing followed after. I had video - the Woodstock movie, TV appearances. For me, there was no substitute for watching and listening closely to what my heroes did. Another movie, Let It Be was pretty instructive as to John & George playing acoustics and electrics.

    These days, videos abound for you to watch what your heroes are doing. Also, video lessons are available by very capable instructors. For me, listening to the rhythm and feeling the rhythm comes first; I have to internalize it. After that, watching what the player is doing and imitating the groove in the right hand, the muting of the strumming palm or left hand fingers begins to get me where I want to be. Alternating the strumming hand like a time-keeping pendulum, choosing which up or downstrokes to accent and which to skip or mute, all that plays a part and I would be totally lost as to how I might render all that into notation.

    If any of this sounds doable to you, I would suggest imitating Sam Bush, Chris Thile, Don Julin, ... there are really too many great rhythm players to list. But those three have rhythm teaching videos on Homespun.com or YouTube and there are many others.

    Anyway, I thought I'd share my own experience, even though I can't answer your question about reading rhythm. Maybe try some books or texts aimed at drummers?
    Very sound advice!!!

  16. #38
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    While I agree that recordings and videos are gigantically helpful in getting the rhythm of a tune, and learning tunes in general - too much reliance on this technique can force one to pick tunes to learn on the basis of availability of videos and recordings. Don't postpone the the hard work required to get some competence reading rhythm off the page. Then, you can play any piece of music you want, and not be limited by someone else having similar taste and recording it.

    Both are needed, the ability to get the rhythm by ear, and the ability to get it off the page. What ever one doesn't do, doesn't get done.
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  18. #39

    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Both are needed, the ability to get the rhythm by ear, and the ability to get it off the page. What ever one doesn't do, doesn't get done.
    Depends entirely on who you are and what you do. I've always felt rhythm in a primary sense and have never read any of it, while working as a drummer and bassist. The felt sense has always been the primary modality for me - some folks are like that.

    Then there are other forms I play where notation is just eschewed altogether - trad Norsk, Gaelic, Arabic Maqamat...the forms are often so nuanced as to be poorly represented or irreducible to notation. In many contexts - probably, most of the world - notation is simply irrelevant.

    Likewise, for many, music is entirely predicated on pre-written sources and is interpreted thusly. Two different worlds that are often mutually exclusive.

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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    While I agree that recordings and videos are gigantically helpful in getting the rhythm of a tune, and learning tunes in general - too much reliance on this technique can force one to pick tunes to learn on the basis of availability of videos and recordings. Don't postpone the the hard work required to get some competence reading rhythm off the page. Then, you can play any piece of music you want, and not be limited by someone else having similar taste and recording it.

    Both are needed, the ability to get the rhythm by ear, and the ability to get it off the page. What ever one doesn't do, doesn't get done.
    I think you’re expressing a dichotomy of recordings & video vs. Notation, which is fine enough, I suppose, but feeling & internalising rhythm by hearing and watching doesn’t demand the existence of recordings & video, only performers and teachers. The printed page alone is a very, very poor substitute for performers & teachers, regardless of media & settings.

    Also, your argument supposes that learners are self-limiting in a bias toward what is easy, which I know is not true of all learners, and have my doubts that it’s true even for MOST long term learners. The need to stretch oneself is real.

    The merit in your argument concerns the availability of music to learn - so if mostly what you are saying is that understanding notation allows access to music which has been notated but not recorded or otherwise heard or taught - okay, you have a point, such as it is.
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Another thing, by rhythm, do you mean the melody note values in relation to the timing of the piece? The general groove of the music? Or the rhythmic accompaniment for the melody?

    What sort of rhythm are you guys reading in your notation? Specifics would help here.
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Here’s a rhythm that’s modified by the melody, 4/4 or 3/4 time?


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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Well there's a fascinating theory of time that would counter the argument of our scant history, in geologic time, being "equidistant" but I'm sure ancient humans and other species have systems or intuitions of form/formal "notation" that is symbolic thinking. So it's really just an argument of institutions.

  23. #44
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Well there's a fascinating theory of time that would counter the argument of our scant history, in geologic time, being "equidistant" but I'm sure ancient humans and other species have systems or intuitions of form/formal "notation" that is symbolic thinking. So it's really just an argument of institutions.
    How esoteric of you

    I agree that is fascinating, but I think this discussion is centered around reading rhythm in Western music of the common era.
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  25. #45
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Well there's a fascinating theory of time that would counter the argument of our scant history, in geologic time, being "equidistant" but I'm sure ancient humans and other species have systems or intuitions of form/formal "notation" that is symbolic thinking. So it's really just an argument of institutions.
    Interesting.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.p...edit&section=2
    So rhythm and music could be a symbolic behaviour that’s adopted in order to communicate between members of a group when faced with uncertainty?

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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    'Way out there' or 'down to Earth?' Hmmmmm such a problem.

    For me it involves one's language and culture and then hard work in learning. Talk is cheap. I'm an expert at that one.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    I thought I'd qualify my statement about "pre-literate" traditions. I tend to get carried away in responding to ideological claims

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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    …Specifics would help here…
    Yup

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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    Does anyone have this book? It is highly recommended and I'd like to know more about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by August Watters View Post
    On learning to read rhythms: Reading Contemporary Guitar Rhythms by Mike Szymczak is an excellent resource. Guitar has little to do with it; the book is really a systematic exploration of sixteenth-note rhythms as they occur in popular music styles.

    I used this book as a student, years ago, and as a teacher have recommended it to students for a long time.
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    Default Re: Learning to read Rhythm

    I have designed a an important mandolin skills training webinar that I am offering to all Café members free of charge, Your Roadmap to Mandolin Mastery. It's a 90-minute live Zoom presentation followed by 30 minutes of dedicated Q&A time. The primary focus of the webinar is giving students a framework for hearing, reading, playing any and all rhythms.

    The next one is coming up on Saturday December 11 - I'd love to see you there! You'll get a load of immediate value in the form of daily warmup exercises, repertoire tips and live response to your questions.

    you can sign up for free here:
    https://www.timsmandolessons.com/pl/2147549067
    Tim Connell
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