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Thread: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    For what its worth, I think Blackberry Blossom is a tune that works really well both at higher speeds and slower speeds.

    I think a lot of the unease with playing fast is needing to getting used to tunes at that speed.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I played in contradance bands off and on for a number of years, so lot's of very notey New England reels. Dance tempo necessitates pushing the speed to the 110-114 bpm range. I agree that the speed often blurs the notes and can make the playing less enjoyable for mandolin players. Fiddles, on the other hand, can just glide right through. Jigs are a different story.

    I still enjoy playing contradance music myself for pleasure and have found that merely slowing the tunes down to, say 95bpm, gives the tunes a much nicer feel, no dropped notes, and more of a bounce feel than a twirl. Irish players will know what I mean.

    Purely speculation on my part, but I think boredom may have something to do with the speed issue. If you're a proficient player and have been playing the same tunes for 25 years, you're probably ready to mix it up a little bit. It's the same force that has great musicians stretching the boundaries of the genre with different chording, mixing some jazz in, etc.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Is that true? The roots may be in Appalachian dance music, but I thought Bill Monroe (and cohorts) envisioned it more as stage performance music unrelated to dancing. Which is why there is no natural brake on the music. Don't some BG pickers even get annoyed when people at concerts start freeform dancing on the sidelines?

    One of the reasons I enjoy playing Irish and Scottish trad is that it is still closely tied to dance tempos, even though we no longer have dancers at a typical pub session. Performance bands in ITM will sometimes push the tempos beyond that, but there is a common understood dance tempo for jigs, hornpipes, slides, and reels in most sessions. When you get too far past that, most players of ITM will feel it's getting a bit out of hand.

    That doesn't happen in Bluegrass because you're expected to take a star turn in solos, and speed is valued as a technical skill to excite the audience. You don't have to worry about playing too fast for the dancers because there aren't any.

    I would add (mentioned above in the thread) that it's important to distinguish between music that's actually "too fast" for the genre, and music that's above your technical ability. Make sure that's not the source of the complaint. This happens in ITM too.
    Listen to the words of Monroe’s Uncle Pen. It is all about the barn dancing. Monroe changed traditional old time music but his early years are immersed in traditional tunes.

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  5. #29

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Sometimes you gotta let your horses run...

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    When bands play at the ‘show off speed’, as Jethro called it, sometimes there’s some meaningful ideas conveyed. But often, it’s just a spewing of notes with nothing interesting being said. The fact you can play fast doesn’t make it tasteful. But there are many goals in playing and sometimes pleasing only yourself supersedes the desire of listeners. Not every fast player gains an audience, and I’ve noticed ballads are popular.

    But a fast player with something to say can be quite awesome. Unfortunately they are rare. Ymmv
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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    ... Bluegrass music was famously described by the late Pete Seeger as "folk music in overdrive." Very apt...
    Actually, the phrase came into general use from the title of a 1959 Esquire article by Alan Lomax.

    Bill Monroe -- and the Monroe Brothers before Bill started his own band -- used rapid tempos to create a distinctive and "marketable" sound.



    Bluegrass, despite its roots in old-time string band music, which generally favored dance tempos, was "stage music" from its inception in Bill M's mind, meant to be played in front of an audience, and therefore incorporating crowd-attracting virtuosity. The first time I saw Joe Val perform with the Charles River Valley Boys (1963 or thereabouts), he played Raw Hide on his F-4, and John Cooke described it as "an excuse for speed." And, of course, he got an audience request, and encored it in their second set.

    High-speed instrumentals have been a hallmark of bluegrass from the beginning. One of the critiques of "Keith style" or "melodic" banjo picking, when it became common in the 1960's, was that it "lacked drive" -- or in other words, was hard to play really fast.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I didn’t know anything about BG till I got into the mandolin. It immediately struck me as the Hair Metal of acoustic music (I grew up on Hair Metal and still like some of it). Even if I don’t like all BG, I have absolute respect for the technical ability of the players. I honestly don’t understand how people play that fast (BG or Hair Metal).
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Actually, the phrase came into general use from the title of a 1959 Esquire article by Alan Lomax.

    Bill Monroe -- and the Monroe Brothers before Bill started his own band -- used rapid tempos to create a distinctive and "marketable" sound.
    Thanks, Allen, for pointing out that in the years before "bluegrass" was even a word used with respect to music, Bill Monroe played in a duo with his brother Charlie. This was an oldtime-influenced band that did play at some dances, but it was really put together to take advantage of the early radio stations. As such, it was more of a "performance" band, which showcased the music. Bill Monroe played REALLY fast -- and clean! -- on some of their numbers, and his playing garnered a lot of attention. Later, that fast playing carried over into Bill's own band after he broke up with Charlie, which he named the "Bluegrass Boys." And the rest, as they say, is history! But the point here is that fast playing on oldtime/Americana tunes certainly did not originate with bluegrass music. Instead, I would argue, it originated with attempts to grab the attention -- and enthusiasm -- of early radio audiences in the 1930's and 1940's. And it worked, because up-tempo, well-controlled playing can make for exciting listening. It's one of the reasons why folks like bluegrass music to this day.

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  14. #34

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    The magic is when the masters play fast/difficult but doesn't seem it. Ricky Skaggs, Mark O'Connor, etc. A little clip where I'm working up a Sam Bush bit with a metronome. It's OK-ish, but at the end I set the tempo to where Sam played it. I last a measure.
    Same fast thing applies to Jazz. The masters just make it look easy. It ain't.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    When bands play at the ‘show off speed’, as Jethro called it, sometimes there’s some meaningful ideas conveyed. But often, it’s just a spewing of notes with nothing interesting being said. The fact you can play fast doesn’t make it tasteful. But there are many goals in playing and sometimes pleasing only yourself supersedes the desire of listeners. Not every fast player gains an audience, and I’ve noticed ballads are popular.

    But a fast player with something to say can be quite awesome. Unfortunately they are rare. Ymmv
    Bluegrass, and mandolins, are not the only genre/instruments that struggle with this. The guitar (and bass) worlds are full of shredders that may have taken technical capabilities to an extremely high level, but have lost the part of music that is most important to me: expression.
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  18. #36
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Winn View Post
    Bluegrass, and mandolins, are not the only genre/instruments that struggle with this. The guitar (and bass) worlds are full of shredders that may have taken technical capabilities to an extremely high level, but have lost the part of music that is most important to me: expression.
    Gotta disagree, sorry. We tend hear this comment a bit, but when done well, playing at fast tempos does not cause a loss of "expression." Expression is the ability of music to convey a given mood. The mood conveyed by up-tempo playing is often (not always) "excited," or "joyous," or "happy," or "driven." As most musical scholars would tell you, expressivity does not necessarily imply a slower tempo, nor does it need to imply things like a somber or pensive or peaceful or sad mood. Fast tempos have been employed by many classical composers to convey excitement, and even things like a sense of imminent danger -- or perhaps even fear. Think about some of the amazingly fast pieces by Beethoven or Mendelssohn, for example. Or Vivaldi. Or Paganini!

    Expressivity can easily be lost when the tempo becomes erratic, or the playing uneven, or the notes slurred or missed. That is technical imperfection, and it's not a fault of the tempo, but of the musician. The better musicians can usually handle faster tempos when these are indicated. The lesser musicians cannot.

    It is simply untrue that fast playing lacks "expressivity." Poor playing lacks expressivity. Great playing generally results in great music, at any of the intended tempos.

    That said, I entirely agree that "showing off" speed for its own sake is does not usually come across as being musically tasteful. For example, with the shredders you mentioned. But there is plenty of fast music that is tasteful. I like a lot of bluegrass that's played at fast tempos, as it was intended by the folks who first wrote and introduced the pieces. These are perfectly "expressive," and often convey (to me) a sense of happiness and excitement.
    Last edited by sblock; Jan-04-2021 at 3:04pm.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I also think it's a big mix of things. Does the audience enjoy it? Probably for a few tunes. Do the musicians enjoy it, who play it? You betcha. It's the same with blazing guitar solos, when you get to stand out on stage and rip, people love it, you love it. It's just great. Now, is it for 100% of the time? Usually not. Depends on the music, audience, setting, etc.

    FWIW, I absolutely LOVE some of the slower stuff with tremolo that really gets moody and emotional. But sometimes, it's fun to just rip.
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  21. #38

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Thats a problem with Michael Cleveland who is a fine fellow, and a great fiddler!
    He has a tendency to show up at amateur jams when he is not on the road.
    Everyone both advanced and Newby
    Seem to find a middle ground.
    Than Michael walks in, Starts blackberry blossom, way past the high metronome settings.
    Then most players pack up and leave.
    It's not intentional, and I'm not sure Michael realizes it.
    But if top professionals attend amateur jams they should be aware not to
    Start tempos they use onstage.
    Rant over!

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgregg48 View Post
    Thats a problem with Michael Cleveland who is a fine fellow, and a great fiddler!
    He has a tendency to show up at amateur jams when he is not on the road.
    Everyone both advanced and Newby
    Seem to find a middle ground.
    Than Michael walks in, Starts blackberry blossom, way past the high metronome settings.
    Then most players pack up and leave.
    It's not intentional, and I'm not sure Michael realizes it.
    But if top professionals attend amateur jams they should be aware not to
    Start tempos they use onstage.
    Rant over!
    Yow. I, for one, would be thrilled if Michael Cleveland showed up at a jam I was in. What an opportunity, to play with a musician of his caliber, in such an intimate setting! Fabulous!! And I wouldn't ever dream of asking him to hold back on the tempo -- or anything else, for that matter -- when it came 'round to his turn to call (and lead) the tune, as is customary in bluegrass jams. If I couldn't manage the tempo he led, then I would just play backup chords. Or just listen. No shame in that. Don't confuse a bluegrass jam with a bluegrass instruction class. Michael is not there to teach you, nor to lower the bar to your level. He's there to share his spirit and playing with fellow musicians. Let it rip, I say, if that's what he wants. I wouldn't think of packing up and leaving. Even if you can't keep up, then it's a free concert (or learning/listening experience)!

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Gotta disagree, sorry. We tend hear this comment a bit, but when done well, playing at fast tempos does not cause a loss of "expression." Expression is the ability of music to convey a given mood. The mood conveyed by up-tempo playing is often (not always) "excited," or "joyous," or "happy," or "driven." As most musical scholars would tell you, expressivity does not necessarily imply a slower tempo, nor does it need to imply things like a somber or pensive or peaceful or sad mood. Fast tempos have been employed by many classical composers to convey excitement, and even things like a sense of imminent danger -- or perhaps even fear. Think about some of the amazingly fast pieces by Beethoven or Mendelssohn, for example. Or Vivaldi. Or Paganini!

    Expressivity can easily be lost when the tempo becomes erratic, or the playing uneven, or the notes slurred or missed. That is technical imperfection, and it's not a fault of the tempo, but of the musician. The better musicians can usually handle faster tempos when these are indicated. The lesser musicians cannot.

    It is simply untrue that fast playing lacks "expressivity." Poor playing lacks expressivity. Great playing generally results in great music, at any of the intended tempos.

    That said, I entirely agree that "showing off" speed for its own sake is does not usually come across as being musically tasteful. For example, with the shredders you mentioned. But there is plenty of fast music that is tasteful. I like a lot of bluegrass that's played at fast tempos, as it was intended by the folks who first wrote and introduced the pieces. These are perfectly "expressive," and often convey (to me) a sense of happiness and excitement.
    Never said that playing fast wasn't expressive. Just that there are those (in many genres) that concentrate on speed and forget the expression. For every John McLaughlin, Victor Wooten or Chris Thile (who all are masters at knowing when to blind us with the speed of a passage), there are dozens that may have the technical ability to do that, but whose lack of ability to say something shows through.

    Playing fast and expression are not mutually exclusive, but they are not mutually required, either. Mark Knopfler can knock me over with one note.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    ...
    But what I would say is that I love actually playing the occasional Bluegrass tune. It’s fun as a technical exercise, using a metronome to really get that speed up there and trying to work out where, musically speaking, each arpeggio comes from.

    It’s also a challenge to be able to play cleanly at breakneck speed and the egalitarian ‘taking a break’ for each band members appeals to me.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Sometimes the musicians are fulfilling expectations by playing at breakneck speeds. Certain songs/tunes are remembered by listeners or players as being super fast (well or badly played) and if you're playing for an audience, you do have to manage expectations or you won't be asked back. Now, I don't play bluegrass (or listen to it much) but certainly in the genre I play, expectations count for a lot. If I start, say, a slip jig too fast, people will play along but I'll hear about it once the tune is finished. If someone starts a reel too slowly, same thing. We might even play it again "at the proper tempo." But these are individual tunes. As performers, we try to create a set that includes fast, slow and medium paced tunes or the audience gets bored, even with brilliant players, and critics begin to say "it all sounds alike to me."
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgregg48 View Post
    Thats a problem with Michael Cleveland who is a fine fellow, and a great fiddler!
    He has a tendency to show up at amateur jams when he is not on the road.
    Everyone both advanced and Newby
    Seem to find a middle ground.
    Than Michael walks in, Starts blackberry blossom, way past the high metronome settings.
    Then most players pack up and leave.
    It's not intentional, and I'm not sure Michael realizes it.
    But if top professionals attend amateur jams they should be aware not to
    Start tempos they use onstage.
    Rant over!
    I know others like this.

    We call them 'jam busters."
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  31. #44
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmuller View Post
    The magic is when the masters play fast/difficult but doesn't seem it. Ricky Skaggs, Mark O'Connor, etc. A little clip where I'm working up a Sam Bush bit with a metronome. It's OK-ish, but at the end I set the tempo to where Sam played it. I last a measure.
    Same fast thing applies to Jazz. The masters just make it look easy. It ain't.
    Please excuse the dingy....
    Not to deter from the original discussion... but this video is awesome!!!!

    Also, I've really never enjoyed playing music too fast... except for when I played bass in a punk/hardcore band in my twenties. You couldn't start a song fast enough but the drummer couldn't keep up with "2 step parts"... the breakdowns were epic though!

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  33. #45
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    IMHO Michael Cleveland can play as fast as he wants anywhere he wants, would you want to see Hussain Bolt walk ?
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  35. #46
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    IMHO Michael Cleveland can play as fast as he wants anywhere he wants, would you want to see Hussain Bolt walk ?
    Watching Nathan Livers play at that pace is awesome too. Not to mention their Mando duets.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    IMHO Michael Cleveland can play as fast as he wants anywhere he wants, would you want to see Hussain Bolt walk ?
    Good point, but I also wouldn't want to chug a vintage cabernet.

    I saw Michael Cleveland with Flamekeeper back when Jesse Brock was in the band. I was in awe of Cleveland's talent, but I didn't really enjoy the show. For me, it was like machine-gun music, with his notes coming so fast and furiously that I really couldn't savor them. Maybe I need to upgrade my cerebral auditory processor, but every time I would hear a stunning musical phrase, it was quickly replaced by yet another one before I had time to really appreciate and internalize it.

    It's not just the metronome setting in bluegrass; it's what you do with it. Well-placed quarter notes and half-notes enrich the onslaught of eighth-notes and give you the pause in which to savor them. Sure, there's a thrill to drag racing, but I prefer Grand Prix.
    Last edited by Marcus CA; Jan-04-2021 at 11:08pm.
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  39. #48

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Speed, a musical element, another boundary for humans to push against.. Artists will exploit every aspect attainable for control over their sound/music. Watch these cats exploit these instruments in various fast playing forms.

    https://youtu.be/vmTbm_qz82c

  40. #49
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Ever heard Butch Baldesarri play bluegrass or old time? He finds a nice balance between speed, expressiveness and tone.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    My goal is to be able to develop the skill to play Bluegrass fast enough that folks will complain!
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