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Thread: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I agree with lowtone2, Bill Monroe was a great a mandolin player, and technically his stuff has its challenges. I suppose on the Cleveland thing I've been at plenty of jams where I could not keep up and some where others could not keep up with me, I would like to think I try to digest what I can in those situations.
    Bluegrass by its nature has a lot of fast music in the genre, and there will always be someone who can play faster and cleaner than you and soon enough someone will play faster and cleaner than Michael Cleveland.
    I think one of the cool things about fiddle tunes and bluegrass is that much of it sounds just as good slow as it does fast.
    But I still maintain that some Bluegrass was written with the intention of being performed fast, and therefore is not "showy" to do so but being true to the composers intent. Old Dangerfield, Tennessee Blues, Foggy Mountain Breakdown, Whitewater, Katy Hill, Sally Goodin, Wheel Hoss, I could go on quite for a quite bit here
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  3. #77
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post

    6.

    raised both the instrumental tempos and the vocal keys (songs sung in Bb and B) to sound more exciting!

    The key in itself is no indication of range. When Monroe rerecorded Blue Moon of Kentucky he raised the key *from* Bb to C. Little Georgia Rose was originally recorded in C, then *lowered* to B. Goodbye Old Pal was recorded by the accordion band in B, then raised to D in the Decca version.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I would make some distinction between bands (amateur, pro, semi-pro, no matter) doing their thing either live or recorded, and the sitation where you walk into a session in a bar or wherever hoping to play a few tunes. If you're in a band, do what you want and let the listeners judge (if they're listening). Open sessions are a bit different. To my way of thinking, that is where less confident players, and people who just can't play as fast as some, can be encouraged - because without them, it dies. In UK there are now a lot of 'slow sessions' designed for beginners, which is great. If there's more than one session around then one can be for the fast guys, or it could start moderate and get quicker. I haven't yet been to many bluegrass sessions, but I've been to a lot where they play Irish, Scottish, Breton and English music, mostly here in UK. Too many Irish music sessions here (by no means all) degenerate into ego displays, where blinding speed and obscure tunes are seen as some way of scoring points or even keeping it 'exclusive' for a small group of friends. Fortunately, as mentioned above, Martin Hayes has shown that speed isn't all you get points for in Irish music Speed is rarely an issue at English music sessions, except when someone starts a tune at a moderate speed and a loud player (worst case is a piano accordion) who isn't listening comes in fast and won't respect the existing tempo. Most of these things are just general bad manners. However I think we should make some space in sessions for those who aren't quite 'there' yet, those that once were and aren't any more, and those that never will be.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    If you think Bill Monroe had limited, as in not very much, technical ability, I doubt that you have studied and played Bill Monroe. Speed is one technical aspect, there are others.
    Indeed, and that exactly was (partly) my point.

    It seems typical that among the few Monroe tunes that inspired me numbers like Moonlight Waltz, Crossing the Cumberlands, medium tempo tunes featuring the fiddle or banjo, not the mandolin, stand out. As for his soloing I found it less than inspiring; I had other models, not necessarily mandolin players.

    Speaking of the former tune, it was rerecorded by Kenny Baker on a County album, with Monroe guesting on mandolin. The tune. all 4 parts, is played through 3 times. Kenny Baker plays the first and last round leaving the middle round to Monroe, except the last part, the climax, which unlike the other three is in a higher postion (I believe Baker does in 2nd, I do it in 3rd). What does that illustrate?

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Is there a Martin Hayes of bluegrass? (the Irish fiddler who showed it can be just as good when you slow it down). If so, there's some hope for me.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    After doing a tune one night I had a band member say to me "you sure love a ballad don't you"...well yes I do! I've always preferred at most a moderate tempo. It has to be nice and melodic, soulful and/or having a great groove for my likings. Any genre from traditional to blues to country to rhythm and blues to jazz/swing/standards to western swing to creole to bluegrass I love equally. I just have never cared for blistering tempos of any genre as they don't move me in any way

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I think of bluegrass jams as equally a sport as they are an artistic enterprise. Playing blistering fast and getting better at the instrument is a really rewarding experience. Then again thinking of bluegrass as a sport has kept me from being bored playing Little Cabin home on the Hill for the 1000th time.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Barnett View Post
    Listen to the words of Monroe’s Uncle Pen. It is all about the barn dancing. Monroe changed traditional old time music but his early years are immersed in traditional tunes.
    The traditional tunes from which Bluegrass derived were often dance tunes. Bluegrass itself however, is not and was not originally dance music. The danceable aspect of the old time tunes was not carried into bluegrass, and I think by design. As said before, Bill Monroe's conception was not dance music. Regardless of the lyrics.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Couple three comments about speed.

    One is that no tune should be played faster than it needs to be. Some of course need to be very fast, but others have more to offer at a slower pace.

    Two, Bluegrass is a bit more about the musicians than the tune, as compared to old time for example. Its is a "what'ya got" "lets see it" type of music, which rewards scintillating breaks and enormous talent and shows of dexterity. Just a characteristic of bluegrass, as contrasted with other genres.

    Three, don't be fooled. Yes play fast is an achievement, but there are a lot of things that enable fast playing that are not simple high octane athleticism. Keeping your fingers down so as to minimize finger movement for example. Repeated closed position configurations that enable concentration on a handful of comfortable licks that can be ported anywhere up and down and across the neck, for another. Going down a string and up the neck where the configuration may be easier and more conducive to fast play; many such things. I am not taking anything away from fast players, not at all. A dose of brilliance is a wonderful thing. I am just pointing out that what may seem to be unbelievably and unachievably fast, when you consider these other techniques becomes believable if not exactly achievable.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Is there a Martin Hayes of bluegrass? (the Irish fiddler who showed it can be just as good when you slow it down). If so, there's some hope for me.

    49 years ago, when I was really tired of the fast 2/2 in BG, I recorded "Improvisation on a theme by W S Monroe"on a Tandberg machine, as an experiment, striving for really new ideas and rhythmic diversity. It's not really slow, but way below 160 bpm. There was overdub to be sure, accompaniment+solo, but the recording was totally improvised and there was no editing.


    I'm intrigued by the fact that no one on that forum likes it.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Redux Hide! Very innovative Ralph. And I like the nod to tradition with the last couple measures. But it does beg the question... why C#?
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    49 years ago, when I was really tired of the fast 2/2 in BG, I recorded "Improvisation on a theme by W S Monroe"...

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    Interesting - sounds a little bit towards 'Bill Monroe meets Django Reinhard'. About 20 years ago, there were some Scottish folk bands who started to put four to the bar jazz chording behind trad fiddle tunes played at a moderate speed.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Somewhat recently I happened upon a show on RFDTV called “The Bluegrass Trail” hosted by a fellow called Alan Sibley. I’d never heard of him or any of the guests I’ve seen on his show, but I’ve been consistently blown away by the level of talent and musicianship by all.

    What’s also fascinating is that many of these players are proficient on multiple instruments. Par example, I’ve seen Sibley play (masterfully) guitar, fiddle, and mandolin. There was a group on there (I’m pretty sure all these shows are re-runs) called Carolina Blue and the mandolin player was absolutely phenomenal. Not only speed but _very_ tasteful playing overall.

    I noticed something after watching a few episodes: I don’t necessarily like listening to Bluegrass but I LOVE to watch people play it. The technical ability of these folks is somewhat mind-blowing to me. And as an aside, many of them come off as really cool people.

    Final side note: I also like that BG isn’t a beauty pageant or a time to show off chiseled jawlines and skinny jeans. It looks more like regular people having fun and enjoying music.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Final side note: I also like that BG isn’t a beauty pageant or a time to show off chiseled jawlines and skinny jeans. It looks more like regular people having fun and enjoying music.
    That is certainly true of 'The Bluegrass Trail". From what I've seen, skinny-jeans wouldn't stand a chance.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    Redux Hide! Very innovative Ralph. And I like the nod to tradition with the last couple measures. But it does beg the question... why C#?
    I recorded it on one tape machine in 1972. It was digitized from a different machine 9-10 years ago. Seems the second machine was faster.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    "Music is in the space between the notes." -no bluegrasser, ever

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    The traditional tunes from which Bluegrass derived were often dance tunes. Bluegrass itself however, is not and was not originally dance music. The danceable aspect of the old time tunes was not carried into bluegrass, and I think by design. As said before, Bill Monroe's conception was not dance music. Regardless of the lyrics.
    There are degrees of fast. When I was learning the guitar in the 50's 120 bpm (or 240 bpm in 4/4) was what I counted as fast. But getting into BG and mandolin I realized that some of the BG flagwavers are done at 160 or even faster, in 2/2. Banjo players achieved this largely bytheir use of three fingers, mandolin players through extensive use of repeated notes and finger-friendly phrases. And then there's Chris Thile; sometimes you don't realize how fast his playing is, because it's so relaxed. And he can execute those ridiculously fast licks because he hears that fast.

    Grassers tend to do Train 45 much faster than Grayson and Whitter. J van Cleve's treatment of Wheel Hoss makes Monroe's original appear relaxed by comparison. Etc. It's good to have the ability to play faster than really needed; but that ability is better used for introducing bursts of triplets and sixteenths for variety or dramatic effect.

  22. #93

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    As The Beatles sang in 'Rock and Roll music' 'Unless they try to play it too darn fast -- And lose the beauty of the melody'. I usually think the melodies sound very much better at a mid tempo. Yes fast music can be exciting but I'm with the guy who posted this. I can enjoy a fast tune the same as the rest but I remember years ago seeing certain European bluegrass bands coming to UK festivals and basically trying to play it as fast as they could and it was completely boring. Not in the least exciting. I jyst wanted them to finish. They were talented players but trying to impress with speed and it didn;t work for me.
    I can really enjoy Sierra Hill ripping it up with any number of fast bluegrass players but her definition is so good that it is exciting. Nothing against banjos but when I heard someone at breakneck speed on banjo, it is usually a complete turn off.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Indeed, and that exactly was (partly) my point.

    It seems typical that among the few Monroe tunes that inspired me numbers like Moonlight Waltz, Crossing the Cumberlands, medium tempo tunes featuring the fiddle or banjo, not the mandolin, stand out. As for his soloing I found it less than inspiring; I had other models, not necessarily mandolin players.

    Speaking of the former tune, it was rerecorded by Kenny Baker on a County album, with Monroe guesting on mandolin. The tune. all 4 parts, is played through 3 times. Kenny Baker plays the first and last round leaving the middle round to Monroe, except the last part, the climax, which unlike the other three is in a higher postion (I believe Baker does in 2nd, I do it in 3rd). What does that illustrate?
    Taste is individual of course, but you might find as many others have that the more you dig into Monroe's mandolin style the more you will get out of it. I love the way he balanced rhythm with melodic and harmonic content. He was all about the blues, and really created a new, highly energetic, style of blues. I came to bluegrass through a jazz backdoor and Monroe was an unexpected discovery for me. Again, taste is individual.

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Medley 12 bluegrass IS NOT always played fast, it just always sounds faster than it is if properly played, it pushes the beat. Listen to Flatt and Scruggs before about 60 or 61 or the Country Gentiemen, especially with Duffy. Yes some is fast but s lot is not,

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Sometimes I think speed is the refuge of bands without good harmony vocals. In jams, I certainly see it from players who only call fast instrumentals to avoid singing as much as possible.

    Great harmony singing is the hallmark of great bands. Doyle Lawson, Seldom Scene, Appalachian Road Show, The Chapmans among others. I’ve left out many favorites.
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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    What is "singing"?

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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Just finished listening to Bluegrass Instrumentals Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys MCA-104 on vinyl a compilation from approximately 1958 - 1963. All great classics. Side one track two Sailors Hornpipe. Rediculously fast by Bill Keith and Kenny Baker, but no Bill! But then.... The next four tracks. Tall Timber, Get up John, Brown County BD, Panhandle Country! Bill could and did play fast. Side two has Rawhide so ....
    But quite honestly this recording is not a at all a representative sample of Bluegrass music. As the title says this is Bluegrass Instrumentals. And I like a good instrumental but maybe every 5th or 6th song in a set.
    Lotsa great vocals, some beautiful gospel, an old time ballad or two, and a good instrumental mixed in (let those folks loose once in a while), that's the mix for me!






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    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    What is "singing"?
    Country musicians call that wurdz?

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