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Thread: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

  1. #1

    Default Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Hi again

    After all the help and suggestions from you lovely people about my missing tuner button, I'm almost embarrassed to ask about something else, but there are a couple of other "issues" with this, possibly 1920/30s mandolin, and I wanted to avoid posting a long list of queries in a single thread.

    There are a few missing bits and bobs which I'm hoping to source, but I'm more concerned about 3 or 4 splits or cracks around the top of the soundboard. They all look pretty old, and are ingrained with muck (as is everything). The most noticeable one, which I'll call "Crack 1", near the neck, looks like an old impact damage. It's firm, but is indented maybe 1mm at the worst point, near the binding.

    Crack 2 is slightly over 4cm and to the right of the sound hole. It does appear slightly open, even with the dirt, and can be felt underneath. Actually the whole of that area feels a bit rough and "splitty" underneath, compared with other areas, even though not all can be seen on top. Nothing moves.

    The other splits are on the same side as Crack 2, but much smaller and can't be felt underneath. Pictures of cracks 1 and 2 attached - first 5 images are crack 1, the rest are crack 2!

    I've had the mandolin a few days, nothing so far seems any worse than when it arrived, and it's currently sitting in my guitar case with a humidifier (guitar lives in my "office", since I've been working from home).

    Two other questions are whether I should avoid putting strings on until these splits are fixed/stabilised, and whether the soundboard is normally described as part of the "body" of the mandolin?


    At the moment, I'm thinking that cracks probably aren't something I'd try and fix myself, but the support I've found on here has been incredible, so who knows. Tier 4 probably means it'll be a while before I can get it looked at properly.

    Thanks once again for your thoughts and ideas on the above!

    Carole
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  2. #2
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    OK, good news and bad news:

    * The good news is the one to the right of the sound hole might just be a "surface fissure" for want of a better term. They happen when a single wood fibre is pulled out from the top, leaving you with a little fissure there that's only skin deep. In other words, were you to sand for long enough (don't though), it would sand out. Assuming I'm right, and it can be *very* hard to tell, then it's cosmetic only.
    * The bad news is the other crack looks like a proper crack, and in that location is definitely structural, and the neck will not be stable if you string up.

    From bitter experience, there is only really one way to fix these:

    * Yes reinforce behind with a spruce patch, however this on it's own does not make the top and neck stable.
    * Turn the crack into a square slot with a sharp knife (Stanly or craft knife and a new blade!), then insert a new piece of spruce (I use saved offcuts from soundboards), gluing in ideally with hide glue, but titebond original would be no crime on a lower value instrument.

    The hard part, the really hard part, is not making it look like Frankenstein's monster, for that you'll need some very skilful touchup.

    As the saying goes, here's one I did earlier, this is an extreme example with the top cracked through in multiple locations along with multiple old repairs some of which were holding, others not. And some looked like they were holding but actually weren't, hence I had to do some of the this twice over. In this case we cheated on the touch up and went black-top since the repairs and scars were so extensive:

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    Generally speaking, it's best to go full on belt and braces first time with crack repairs and then you don't have to do them twice!

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  4. #3

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Thanks - that's both good and bad to know. Good, in that it answers my question as to whether these would have structural implications, and good in the sense that it's not really a surprise to hear that they do. I wanted to know how much to be concerned about these.

    Sadly the one on the right does go right through, and can be felt underneath. It does have old strings on, though (albeit slack now), which sort of implies that it had continued to be played after the cracks happened - and the neck seems straight, as far as I can tell. I might keep it as a future project in the event that I develop some repair skills, but in the meantime might query the seller's description that "body is sound".

    Thanks for responding - and Happy New Year!

  5. #4

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Don’t give up! It’s just a piece of wood, and you bought it to play. Forgetting the objective is really common in the auto restoration hobby, and it’s insidious. Buy it to drive, start restoring to make it drivable, and next thing you know, it’s mummified and never driven. Been there - many times.
    Since the cracks are near the sound hole, you can get interior patches clamped without special long-throat equipment; any glue you get into a crack is stronger than the original grain, and as long as you can scrape the crack edges clean with a xacto knife, glue will stick. Just try to get the two edges level with eachother, which means clamping, and avoid trying to sand the top to clean it up - spot refinishing is high art. Anything you do ‘wrong’ isn’t going to disrupt the universe. Now the actual repair people will be pretty clear about only using fresh-cooked hide glue because it’s reversible for future repair or correction, and it’s not difficult or unavailable in small quantities. Some issues, though are ok with other glues.
    You had also mentioned, in the other thread, a missing ‘tension bar’: what’s that? If you thought there’s supposed to be a sound post, a la violin, there isn’t. If it’s one of the long braces that were glued under the soundboard and are missing, it’s a serious problem, and whomever sold you this thing did misrepresent it and it really is an invalid mandolin that needs serious, specialized surgery.

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  7. #5

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    There should be a brace immediately above the sound hole which you should be able to feel and another below the sound hole- perhaps, not as close to it as the top brace. There are different bracing patterns in stringed instruments but I would be very surprised if there was not one above the sound hole.

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  9. #6

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Definitely not giving up, Richard, and won't give up on learning to play, either.

    Just feeling that some of this is beyond me, as a first-timer. While I do "make stuff", I have no experience with wood, or the necessary tools, even though there is a literal shedload of them, and lathes as well. I think I could have a go at the long, flat split, and sourcing the missing bits, but I wouldn't have a clue how to lift the indented crack safely. It's wedged tight and looks to have been that way for a long time.

    "Tension bar" - well, I could easily be wrong about that, but there are two little holes below the bridge, and some similar date mandolins have another little bar there, and I can't think of another reason for the holes there -? The second photo is off the internet, admittedly it's a bowlback, but it has the thing I mean. I think I've found out where to get a saddle and potentially, a replacement for this tension thing, if that's what it is, and if it's essential.

    I'm happy enough to try some of the more minor things myself, but equally not ruling out paying someone else to do the trickier stuff, if I can find someone within a reasonable distance.

    None of this is completely unexpected - I knew I was taking a punt and didn't want a sparkly, brand-new instrument. Thanks for raising my spirits!
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  10. #7

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Yes, there is, Nick - one above and one below. Both seem really firm as far as I can tell without exerting too much pressure, although the block of indented soundboard runs across the top brace, so I suppose it must have parted company to some extent. I need to find a dentist's mirror ...

  11. #8

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Tier 4 means you're in the UK, but where? Stabilising those cracks is quite easy for someone with experience, and there might be someone nearby. But you also need to know that the neck block isnt loose. I'm in mid Suffolk.

    Full cosmetic repair is a lot harder, but it doesn't look as if that's appropriate.

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  13. #9

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Thanks Chris, it's North London, so there must be someone. I think the only problem might be finding someone interested in doing the work, as I doubt the mandolin itself is worth a great deal, although I absolutely love it and would spend a bit on it. Sadly the only luthiers I know are in Australia!

  14. #10

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    What you need is an amateur builder (guitars, or ukes like me, would be fine as this mandolin isn't an arch top). Sadly I don't know anyone in your area - building needs a shed, and London is short of shed space! Professional luthiers in London will have to charge too much to make the repair economic.

    Good luck finding someone - if you do, check their work before you hand it over. But if someone can build a decent-looking and sounding instrument, they can fix what you've shown us good enough to get you playing (though, as I said previously, cosmetics is a whole different matter!).

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  16. #11
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Well.... you could trust it to the post and send it down to me , or in London, Paul Hathaway would be your man I would think. I can't remember off hand what the tier 4 regs say, but I suspect there won't be any workshops open to the public in any case at present?

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  18. #12

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - a couple of cracks / splits

    Thanks John! You've been more than helpful already. Unfortunately we're in a bit of a covid hotspot and I'm shielding a relative, so won't be going near a Post Office, or anywhere, for a while, but will be sorting out a suitable box in the meantime.

    (I think the rules say non essential businesses should be closed, but I think it's OK if a self employed person works alone and doesn't have customers on the premises)

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