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Thread: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

  1. #1

    Default Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Hello - I'm new on here, and also completely new to mandolin. This probably makes me completely nuts, but my Christmas gift to myself (and Tier 4 project) was an old Barnes & Mullins flatback (discussion on origin here https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...77#post1801677).

    It has a few problems, hopefully nothing that can't be fixed, and I'd been hoping to get it looked at properly - but, with most of us now back in full lockdown and "non-essential" businesses closed, I'm wondering how much, if anything, I can fix myself, and hoping for some advice, as I have no experience whatsoever. I can string a guitar, and that's about it!

    If I list all my questions here it will probably make for a very long thread, so I'll start with what I think seems the simplest fix (time will tell!): one tuner button is missing, and it's not of a kind that I'm familiar with. It isn't the push-on kind, and it doesn't have a screw at the end. Instead, the key/buttons seem to be fixed with a metal collet or ring at the end, which looks to have been maybe tapped on or rubbed over to secure the key.

    Setting aside where I might get a single tuner key (my next question, and I'm not too bothered about it matching, although it'd be nice if it did), how do these come off? I'm wondering whether I might need to carefully cut or file this little collet off in order to fit a new key? Is there another way to get it off, and maybe reuse it?

    Thanks in advance for any advice - and also for the coming questions!

    Carole
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  2. #2
    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    You will probably get better answers than mine, but if not, here goes:

    If the end of the square shaft does not unscrew like a modern tuner shaft screw then I would scour eBay for "clock keys" with the appropriate sized socket. If I found one, I would use a file to square the end of the tuner shaft so it matches the rest of the shaft. Then keep the key with the mandolin.

    Clock keys come in various sizes, sometimes designated only as a single digit number. You can google clock key sizes or something similar to find charts to translate the size designation to inches or mm. I went through this a few years ago looking for a key to match the tuners on a German waldzither.

    I think a new tuner button will look odd. Or replacing all tuner buttons so they match will look strange on such an obviously old mandolin. I would rather just have the one button be missing in action as long as I could tune the instrument with a key.
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  4. #3

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Clock keys ... ... well, my dad's hobby was watch and clock repairs and actually I'd been thinking that the collet looks a lot like the end bit of an old watch winder, and wondering if there are any spares of those, or anything similar, hanging about in his stuff. The tuners do all still seem to work; I've tested the one with the missing key using some small pliers. I guess I could carry on doing that if I can't find a suitable clock key. But that's not a bad idea!

    Ultimately, if I can't find and fit a matching key, my plan was to make one from polymer clay. It should be possible to get a good match, but, as it would have to be oven-hardened, it still leaves the problem of fixing it. And, even in lockdown, it would be more of a faff than I'd like, until I know everything else works OK.

    I agree with you about authenticity, and also have my doubts about replacing the keys. The only ones I've seen and quite liked were wooden but I'd hesitate to try and replace the whole set, when I haven't managed one yet!
    Last edited by MidwinterSun; Dec-30-2020 at 7:05pm.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    You likely will, as HH says, get more authoritative answers from people who know these tuners in detail, and if you don’t, I’ll invent several easy solutions. I think you don’t necessarily need to remove the little collar, or colllet. Or, how to remove it with little damage and replace it. Or, how to ignore it entirely. If you have access to watchmaker tools, you don’t need anything else. Finding a nice enough match for the button involves, first, measuring the square shaft accurately with dial calipers or a micrometer, as the dimensions on buttons are given. If nothing is close enough, those small files will come in handy to enlarge the button. There are several suppliers of repair parts for luthiers, and people on this forum tend to know who carries specific items. Let’s see who writes in.

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  7. #5
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    It looks like a ring/spacer was placed over the axle and then the axle was riveted. Maybe you can press the ring further down and then file off the riveting. The new button could be fixed with superglue and the ring as well.

    A new button can be aged/patinised with f.x. coffee, stain or dye. Find a button made of bone, like the originals.
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....
    Richmond RMA-110..... .Noname Bearclaw
    Pochette Franz Janisch...5 Pocket............Alfredo Privitera pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912.......Puglisi 1917
    3 Mandolinetto ..............C.Garozzo
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

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  9. #6

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    I have spoken to my luthier and he says you can buy mammoth tusk and bone buttons if you search hard- or you could use a plastic button and shape and age it- you would probably have to shape a bone button as well. File the peened end off the tuning shaft to release the collar and clean up the shaft and remove all burring. You will have to create a square hole in the button and this could be done using a fret saw or a jeweller's saw or a very small file. The button can be slid over the shaft and you can then glue the collar back using super glue- as the square hole and square shaft will hold the button while it is torqued during the tuning process- the collar and glue just keep the button in situ. If you get a plastic button then using a heated thin square rod to turn a round hole into a square hole avoids the more time consuming task of filing the hole into a square shape. Obviously, having more than one button is useful so that trial and error can be accommodated. Likewise, it depends on your access to tools. The other route is to visit eBay regularly to see if these tuner units show up. There is a Luigi Dorigo mandolin for sale- it has been up for a few weeks and it has these tuners. The problem is that's it is not a wreck and the seller is looking for £120 or an offer and you end up with two mandolins. A wreck may show up given time with the same tuners, so if you are not happy with your new tuner button then you may be able to get spares over time. You do not necessarily need perfection at the outset- just the practicalities of tuning without difficulties.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-L...oAAOSwaQ9dJFfK

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  11. #7

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Thanks Richard. The "collet" bit, although that's probably not the correct term, is very firmly fixed. Maybe it's due to rust, but I suspect they are softish metal and were tapped/hammered onto the oblong shaft once the key was in place. I'll see if I can get it to move gently with a tiny dab of WD40 and some pliers. If not, I wondered if it could be cut through neatly with a dremel or something, and then *maybe* reused. I can't see a way to leave it in situ other than to model a key around the shaft. Or maybe cut one in half and fit it round, but that would be pretty fiddly.

    I'll dig out the micrometers.
    Last edited by MidwinterSun; Dec-31-2020 at 9:34am.

  12. #8

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Thanks Poul - That sounds like the ideal solution, but I don't think the ring will move; whether that's due to intentionally tight fit or rust I'm not sure. It's very encouraging to hear that it might be possible to find a match, given time and patience.

  13. #9

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Thanks Nick, for more very helpful info! I'd seen the Luigi Dorigo one on ebay - the tuners look virtually identical, as does the headstock, but I wouldn't take a button off one like that for mine, which has other issues that make it a bit of an unknown quantity at the moment, to me at least. Once I know it's good I'd like to restore it properly, regardless of monetary value, so it's great to know the proper buttons can be found, with a bit of effort. I've only seen plastic ones so far, so was thinking a bead from the craftstore might do in the interim.

    I'm really enjoying getting to grips with it all, and I may even have found a use for my dad's tools that he'd approve of He was an engineer with an enthusiasm for carpentry, so although I'm on a steep learning curve as to how to use them, believe me when I say, there'll be a tool for everything ...

  14. #10
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    The ring looks like soft aluminium. If you clear all the rust below it and find a tube with the right diameter, you might hammer it down. But it's only for looks, you should retain it. If you superglue the new button it will stay without the ring.
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....
    Richmond RMA-110..... .Noname Bearclaw
    Pochette Franz Janisch...5 Pocket............Alfredo Privitera pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912.......Puglisi 1917
    3 Mandolinetto ..............C.Garozzo
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

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  16. #11

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    See, people know stuff! Here’s one way to avoid messing with the shaft end, which is pretty much keeping the appearance intact. Buy several plastic buttons with, if possible the same square hole that you measure, or better, a smaller one. Note that some of these shafts are not really square. Then, using dad’s small vise and the jeweler’s saw, cut a button on its equator, that is, parallel to the flat sides. The cut will, if done with a very thin blade, give you two halves, like the shell of a clam. There’s no need to be really accurate and straight, but it’s an objective. Then, using a file with a square cross-section (there’s usually one that tapers from a fine tip), open the hole back up to fit the shaft - again, precision not needed. Then, using a solvent glue that works on the plastic (that’s why you get several buttons for experiment) like acetone, just glue it all right back on the shaft. Should be strong enough.
    If you do get a bone button, the same idea might work, but more difficult to cut, and different glue.

    If you go the end collar removal route anyway, as Poul says, it’s really a washer (brass, copper?) with the steel shaft peened over, which we might call a rivet. Holding the square part firmly with pliers, saw radially throgh the washer and peel it off, then clean the shaft with files if necessary. If you then slide a button on with a dab of crazy glue (familiarly ‘CA’), you don’t need any end attachment at all. If you want the appearance restored, probably in the supplies you have are some tubes or even washers that you could glue back on. I don’t recommend re-peening (riveting) as original since you’d likely break something harder to repair. Try to avoid any force dealing with that part when sawing or filing. Bone is probably better for taking dye and looking original.

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  18. #12

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    This company has had camel bone buttons made but they are currently out of stock. There is a nylon inner part, so it might be possible to press the button on- or make a square hole as described above. However, they are not the right shape and would need careful filing to shape. However, it appears you get six, so plenty of room for mistakes- only shape a button once it is installed! These do have two holes, so you would need to fill the hole on the outer edge but if you are going to colour them for age use a filler that will take some kind of staining. However, they are not in stock at present. Check their size to your needs as they might not be big enough to file down but as they are for guitars, they may well be big enough.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HANDMADE-...-/372644354175

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  20. #13

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Yes, some fabulous ideas here! I'm inclined to try the "halfs" solution, but it might depend on what I find to use. I'm pretty sure there's something in either dad's bits and bobs or my jewelry fixings that would approximate the look of the washer, if it did have to be binned (and if it seemed like it mattered). Like you I'm nervous of attempting anything remotely forceful; the gears part is nicely closed in and I definitely don't want to have to mess with that.

  21. #14

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    The nylon inside sounds like a useful feature! I think, though, I'd like to avoid too much outer shaping if possible. I don't mind a characterful "odd" button in the interim. If it sits well with the others, that's great but not essential. As far as replacing all of them goes, I'm a librarian/archivist by profession and that seems un-authentic in principle (and unnecessary work). As I can't play at all yet, appearance is really the least of my worries

    Longer term, I'm not wedded to the idea of bone, provided the replacement(s) don't look too out of character. I don't think the decoration is real tortoiseshell ... I hope it isn't, but if it is, it's a feature of the piece and although not liking the idea, I wouldn't change it for the sake of it.

  22. #15

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Leaving the seven buttons as they are, is the best option. Every now and again German made mandolin tuners appear on eBay- they do not have to be the enclosed version like yours. Sometimes, they are inexpensive and some are of the type with the peened rod to hold on the collar. Perhaps, somebody will sell a broken set for very little and you may be able to retrieve some buttons and gears. This will involve you keeping an eye on eBay- very few old "used" units show up but they are advertised from time to time. There is no point spending massively on decent working tuners to acquire one button but you may get one with patience while in the meantime if you replicate what you have with a plastic button nobody will be the wiser. Your priority is getting to play and learning- the finer points of getting an exact match with one tuner button is secondary to learning to play. Watch out for wrecked mandolins that might go very cheaply but have what you need. I did manage to get a set of brand new unsold 1930s German guitar tuners a few years ago and they were not expensive and an exact match for what I needed. Here is a set of German tuners from circa 1900 that sold on eBay in the USA and they were probably made by the same company. They are open tuners and in good order and went for $65 and this guy is now charging $45 to ship them- he used to charge about one third of that price- then there is the VAT on arrival and a hefty "handling charge" from Royal Mail, so it is not a sensible deal. The buttons are not the same shape but if you persevere you may find what you are looking for in time.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ant...p2047675.l2557

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  24. #16

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    I'll create a saved search on ebay, and keep an eye on it. In the meantime, after a rummage through my jewellery making stuff, I've found some acrylic faux jade beads - not even remotely a match, but about the right size, could look like a similar vintage and will allow me to refine my filing and drilling skills at no expense or risk. All I'm really hoping for is, whatever I can manage until I can get it to someone who knows what they're doing. If I discover I can do some of it myself in the meantime, and if I learn new stuff along the way, I'll be more than delighted

    There are other missing bits, like the saddle ...

  25. #17

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    I have seen a number of old mandolins on eBay in Germany that were cheap and had buttons that might do. Likewise in Italy. However in France, there is this listing and although the buttons are not the same shape, this is the sort of thing you need to sleuth out and the postage is okay although it may be more to the UK. If your mandolin did not have recessed tuners you would be able to swap complete tuner units over.

    https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Ancien-manch...YAAOSw-yxU26YB

    This is not such a good deal: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Ancien-accor...YAAOSwjVVVxFel

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  27. #18
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Have you taken off those tuner covers and looked at what is underneath? Take a photo and post here. Otherwise there must be a way to replace that one button and, at the very worst, have someone carve the replacement to match the others in shape and artificially age the bone.
    Jim

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  29. #19
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    The 2 halves idea can work. You don't have the broken button? I had a bone button shatter but I succeeded in gluing them all back together, with superglue, and it's almost invisible.
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....
    Richmond RMA-110..... .Noname Bearclaw
    Pochette Franz Janisch...5 Pocket............Alfredo Privitera pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912.......Puglisi 1917
    3 Mandolinetto ..............C.Garozzo
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

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  31. #20
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Just my 2c here, but I've replaced several like that and the procedure is always the same:

    * Remove the old collar that was holding the original button on.
    * Fashion a new button from bone (a bone nut blank, a hacksaw, and some course grit is all you need) and epoxy it on to the shaft, make sure it's a tight fit as well as glued on.
    * Add a dob of solder on the end of the shaft and round it off to match the existing collars.
    * Age the button using wood dyes, tea, coffee, or whatever bitter brew you have to hand.

    One thing I would note though: the original probably broke because the mechanism had become ultra-stiff and someone put too much force in it, so before you do anything else, disassemble the whole thing and clean up the mechanism. I use GT85 lube for this (from bike stores), but other PTFE based cleaner/lubes are available.

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  33. #21

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Thanks Jim, I haven't taken off the tuner covers, and am hoping not to have to! They all turn smoothly; whether they'll hold or not is another thing, and some of the holes look like they might not be supporting the peg adequately.

    The missing button is actually the least of the mandolin's problems - I was just hoping to feel like I'd made some progress myself, while wondering where to take it/how much I might be able to manage.

    But, in terms of making a button, if a replacement cant be found, I thought of a couple of options. As I'm more of a modeller, polymer clay is very versatile, doesn't shrink in curing and you can get some good translucent effects. It's also soft enough to file and polish easily. Maybe too soft for longevity, but it might be an interim fix. Resin might be better; either could be formed in a silicone mould from one of the other buttons in situ, and although it would be a fiddly job it's more my level than taking tuners apart
    Last edited by MidwinterSun; Jan-03-2021 at 10:58am.

  34. #22

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Yes, solder would be a good match ... the buttons have a nice curved profile, so sadly I'm not confident of making a convincing replacement by the carving method, although I've had another couple of ideas I might experiment with. If nothing else, Gran's hatpins might have some nice 1930s beads!

    Re: mechanism ... oh really? That doesn't sound great. They do all turn, though, including the one that's broken, and the ones with old strings still on do wind the strings. Having said that, at this stage I'd be amazed to find anything that still works on this As I've said, though, it's more or less what I was expecting and although I probably should send it back, the more time I spend with it, the more I love it.

  35. #23

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    Sadly not, Poul. But I know I've seen identical buttons on charity shop instruments in the past, so reasonably confident one might turn up somewhere.

  36. #24
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    I think John’s comment (Tavy) above is an endorsement to take off the cover and see what is going on there. If the tuners are not useable you can see how to work in a replacement set. John has worked on many similar instruments and knows his stuff.
    Jim

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  38. #25

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback - missing tuner key

    True, Jim, but on these all the posts use the cover plate for bearing and location, so everything can become loose. Just like taking the big plate off a clock, and our friend might not want a tabletop with scattered parts. It isn’t really too bad, at least not as bad as a clock, but it’s a task. Then there’s the need to know what one is looking at in terms of wear and burrs, not just dropping some lube on the gears. If it was cruddy inside, taking all the parts out is in order, and...

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