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Thread: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Some years ago a friend gifted me this mandolin--then in unplayable condition--"for spare parts". Recently I was motivated to put it back into operating mode. Another friend was looking for a better than average beginner's instrument. This one--in playing shape--would meet his needs.

    It appears to date from the 1910-1930 period based on workmanship, materials and decorative details.

    This was definitely not going to be a conservation project since the instrument had already had some apparent modifications including the addition of newer tuning machines with mismatched bushings as well as some less than perfect body repairs. That old work had resulted in a badly re-set neck which made the instrument impossible to set up for comfortable, accurate playing without some exceptional surgery.

    And, maybe more significantly, we could find no indication--inside or out--who had made it and so had no clue what its "original condition" might have been and therefore no conservation target.

    Pictured here restored to excellent playing condition again with a new fretboard, new bridge and a number of other structural issues remedied (cracked heel, separated back center seam, loose pick guard, improperly installed tuning machines) we are still left wondering who might have made it.

    Mandolin loving friends have noted it has some leanings toward Vega, Martin and Weymann; it seems an odd hybrid with mixed "key characteristics".

    After a lengthy search through hundreds of mandolin images the one significant detail I did not encounter is the unusual asymmetric sound hole ring. That area--with the pearl inlaid in black matrix--I saw on no other mandolins and suspect it may be the only real clue to this instrument's origin.

    My personal view is that it may have come from the Vega works. The pick guard, for example, if imagined cut in half, almost exactly matches that on a Vega cylinder back mandolin in my collection. The inlays around the sound hole and the hole in the peg head are also very much like those seen on various Vega products.

    It really is a lovely little player again that so impressed the original owner he wanted it back. Since he'd treated me very well in an earlier guitar trade I decided I owed it to him. He's been delighted playing it since.

    If you recognize the maker please let us know. The suspense is killing us!


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  2. #2
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    In the early 20th century, a number of independent Italian luthiers in and around New York were making guitars and mandolins that took some of their cues from tradition, some from what the big-name makers were doing at the time, and some from the luthier's own imagination.

    Some of these luthiers are remembered today and some are not. Raphael Ciani was one of them; he had some highly idiosyncratic designs but may be better remembered as the uncle and teacher of John D'Angelico. Most Ciani mandolins are bowlbacks, but occasionally something different shows up. Like this: http://mandolincafe.com/forum/thread...hiani-Mandolin

    So what you've got here could have come from one of those shops. A little Vega, a little Martin, a little Weymann, one or two touches of my own, a little fairy dust, and voila!
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  4. #3

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    There is the same mandolin on eBay right now- branded as S S Stewart. There is a thread here for a similar mandolin which has recessed tuners and a canted top, and the possible maker names mentioned are Martin, Weymann but not Vega. A gloss black mandolin adorned with decals of the flags of the UK and the USA has been discussed here a couple of times- and it has the same body shape which does not have the heel of the neck visible from the back- something you often see on instruments made in central Europe. Although the shape of the back is not the same, it is closer to Oscar Schmidt made mandolins. The sound hole inlays are very German looking but they were, of course, exported from Germany where MOP inlay making was a big business- although some Germans had emigrated to the USA and made inlays in the USA. I had wondered if Oscar Schmidt had imported the bodies from the company's Karlsbad works and had them finished with US made metalware in New Jersey which might explain the body shape.However, it was probably all made in the USA but the maker is elusive. Here is the eBay auction- I would date the mandolin as 1930-ish. You will notice it has different tuners to the one above- worm over gear style:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1920s-SS-St...s/324054835151

    Here is that earlier thread: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...olin-questions

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  6. #4
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Well, there's only one shot in the eBay ad where you can see any tuner gears at all, and it sure looks to me like the tuners on both mandolins are worm over.

    The soundhole inlay is a dead ringer, though. If that eBay mandolin is a Stewart then it's likely the OP's is too.

    Might ask the eBay seller how they know it's a Stewart. Is there a label?
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  8. #5

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    You are right about the tuners, of course I must have hallucinated! There is a label in that other mandolin in the other thread. Here is one with a label on Reverb:
    https://reverb.com/item/2503532-1920...gany-tone-king


    I posted this elsewhere recently and it features a Czech (Egerland) made mandolin from about 1930 which has the same body shape;

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-a...IAAOSwMkRe3qB~
    Last edited by NickR; Aug-23-2020 at 4:18am.

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  10. #6
    Confused... or?
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Interesting that the 3rd-fret marker is offset toward the bass side by a fair amount; none of the links to other listings show that charateristic. If anything, the others show all markers offset toward the bass side, but that's probably more due to string spacing than actual marker position.

    I enlarged & rulered the monitor to be sure that the offset was real. Not sure if the 3rd-fret marker isn't also larger, but that may be an illusion due to the converging string-spread.
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  11. #7

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Very attractive mandolin! Unfortunately, I have no idea who made it.

  12. #8

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    I just wonder, if as suggested above, and as this was a brand of B & J in NYC, if this mandolin model was indeed the output of a local workshop, rather than one of the bigger- or huge makers that B & J was also using at this time, such as Martin and Regal in the 1920s.

  13. #9
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    It was obviously made for the trade so a distributor, retailer or school could label it or not label. I don't see any Stewart label on that one on eBay, I'm guessing that one was identified using the WAG system. The musical instrument industry in the US (it was made in the US) was really into this outsourcing the building thing. Even companies that had been and maybe still were manufacturers were buying instruments from other builders and labeling them as their own. Maybe we'll be lucky and someone will have a catalog page or a few branded examples.
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  14. #10
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    ...You will notice it has different tuners to the one above- worm over gear style...
    The tuners are different make/model tuners but they both appear to be worm over. Am I missing something there?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  15. #11

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    I mentioned above that I must have been hallucinating when I looked at the OP's mandolin- as they are clearly worm over gear!
    It's funny that there seem to be so few references from B & J but maybe their catalogues were very big and just got chucked en masse and were not stashed away for posterity.

  16. #12
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    B&J bought from everyone so it's probably not a good spot to start a search. The joys of unlabeled vintage instruments.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  17. #13

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    I agree but a catalogue might just give a date but it would not identify the maker. There was that interview with Bud Jacobson, I think it was, when he was about 100 where he said that putting the catalogue together was a total nightmare but their customers wanted it- so it had to be done.
    Here's one that must have been on eBay.

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ical-130533613

    And another from the 40s:

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...sical-52535296

  18. #14
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    The OP does mention that the tuners on his mandolin are replacements.
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  19. #15

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Yes, and it's cloud tailpiece cover is engraved- the other two are not. It may be original or it might be a replacement for one that went to wherever those covers migrate to when given the chance to wander!

  20. #16

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    You have a keen eye...though the angle of this photo helps. Okay, I confess...so be kind. That marker is slightly offset...but not intentionally and was not so on the original fingerboard which I had removed as it was deteriorated beyond saving. I was seriously annoyed when cleaning up the inlay work when I discovered that one dot was just slightly out of line...a bit of dirt on the drill press fence?..a wandering, slightly dull bit?..who knows? But otherwise the dot was centered between the frets and perfectly fitted. I debated several scenarios to remedy it--including making up some cock and bull story about how having it off line made it easier to determine which one it was while in playing position. But I decided, in the end, that I'd just leave it and let some future sleuths debate why. Little did I suspect that would happen quite so soon. Next time one wanders off the reservation I guess I'll have just have to bite the bullet and move it...though chances are good it might end up too far the other way?

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  22. #17

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Flaws like that are a sign of it being hand made- as opposed to the perfection of a CNC router. I think it is just a shame that no real light has been shone on which company might have made the mandolin- it is possible to rule out companies but not to identify a likely maker it seems.

  23. #18
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    I think it is just a shame that no real light has been shone on which company might have made the mandolin
    Huh? It is almost certainly an S.S. Stewart. If you're saying we don't know which "jobber" actually built the mandolin, that's true -- but it's also true for any mandolin sold by brands that used the jobber system.
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  24. #19
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    From Mugwumps:

    [S S]Stewart died in April 1898...[George} Bauer joined with Stewart's sons until 1901...After they split, Bauer produced the S.S. Stewart banjo until at least 1910...Later, after Bauer, the S.S. Stewart name went through many hands. The Keenophone Company, a Philadelphia, PA manufacturer of "talking machines" and phonographs, acquired the Bauer Company in 1911 and continued to manufacture the S.S. Stewart musical instruments. In 1915 Keenophone sold the Stewart name to Buegeleisen & Jacobson (B&J), a New York City distributor. The B&J [banjos] were probably made by Slingerland...Other styles of banjo were sold bearing the S.S. Stewart name. The Wm. Lange Company produced a line of heavy, resonated instruments. In the 1930s, The Gibson Company made some banjos marked S.S. Stewart...Some ukuleles marked Stewart were actually made by Martin but sold by someone else, probably B&J. One of Turturro's Peanut Ukes has been seen with an "SS Stewart, New York" plaque. Still later, the Stewart name had other owners and some very cheap, plywood, arch-top guitars were made by Harmony in the 30s.


    So a wide variety of instruments bore the "S S Stewart" label. I owned a tenor banjo that looked very Epiphone-y, but was marked "Fred Stewart" after one of Samuel Stewart's sons. Once a trademark gets owned by a distributor, it shows up on whatever instrument the distributor chooses to designate.

    Still, if you happened to want an S S Stewart guitar formerly owned by Hank Williams, you'd have to pony up $175K to Carter Vintage.
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  25. #20

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Well, we know that S S Stewart mandolins were made by Regal, and Martin made some Style B mandolins as well. Gibson made a version of the L2 guitar that was sold by S S Stewart which is why my Kay made S S Stewart jumbo was sold with the seller stating "the music shop that sold me this said it was probably made by Gibson." In fact, when it comes to mandolins and guitars sold with the S S Stewart brand- except this one, it is nearly always possible to judge who built the instrument and that Hank Williams S S Stewart was made by Harmony- and I have an S S Stewart mandolin that was also made by Harmony, so there's very little mystery most of the time. Here's that L2 version I mentioned.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp9BTS3Znc4

  26. #21
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    It was obviously made for the trade so a distributor, retailer or school could label it or not label. I don't see any Stewart label on that one on eBay, I'm guessing that one was identified using the WAG system.
    I asked the seller about how he knew is was an SS Stewart and he uploaded a photo of the label:

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  27. #22

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Jim, the seller is now using that photo he sent you as his opening photo for the auction. Why he posted a photo of the paper label- enlarged and stuck on the soft carry case is a mystery, as it is the mandolin that is important!

  28. #23
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Some folks don’t think about the necessity of photographing a label or else think it is hard to do clearly. OTOH I have seen people only show the fronts of instruments or just closeups of parts. So it goes....
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  29. #24
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    So, would the "S S Stewart" guitar owned by Hank Williams, and listed (who knows what it actually sold for) at $175,000, be the most expensive Harmony-made instrument ever?

    What's strange, is that Samuel Stewart made banjos, exclusively as far as I know, and published a magazine called The Banjo devoted to promoting banjos, especially his. I'd guess that only after his death, when the label was sold, did it get affixed to a wide variety of instruments.
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  30. #25

    Default Re: Yet another...Mystery Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    So, would the "S S Stewart" guitar owned by Hank Williams, and listed (who knows what it actually sold for) at $175,000, be the most expensive Harmony-made instrument ever?
    I would say that is a safe bet. And, you have to give Carter credit for having the "nerve" to make a case for such an asking price. Or maybe it was the consignor's idea to ask such a price. Without the HW connection, it's a $150-300 guitar on a good day. I guess Hank's songwriting desk should bring $40K and his songwriting chair should bring another $10K..........

    OTOH, Marty Stuart owns Hank Sr's 1939 Martin D-45 that he got in a trade from Johnny Cash, when Johnny was his father-in law. Johnny bought that guitar off Hank Jr. The Martin is worth $350K even without the Hank connection, as only 91 pre-war D-45's were built. With the HW connection, hard to say....but, safe to say Marty is a pretty shrewd horse-trader....

    As an aside, even the Martin factory museum didn't have a prewar D-45 in their collection until recently and it was a tough decision for them to spend the going rate for one -- but they did.

    So yep, getting half of what a prewar D-45 is worth for a Harmony really takes some superb online salesmanship, IMHO!!!

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