Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 51

Thread: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

  1. #1
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Here is a wartime Gibson guitar; I think it is a J-45 but I would be happy to be corrected.

    https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/100965833

    This instrument is far too cool for Goodwill, but bidding is already at $10K, and a quick Google search reveals that these can sometimes be had for less. This one has either finish cracks or actual top cracks (hard to tell from the photos). Am I missing something? Have Goodwill bidders lost their minds?
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  2. #2
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,117

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Let me make you happy

    This is no J-45 but an LG1 or 2 (I think). Look at the waistline of the guitar and the soundhole. The dreadnaught sized J-45 has a wider waistline and the soundhole therefore appears to look smaller. The LG-1 LG-2 is a totally different animal to a J-45 as I think an LG1 is ladder braced and the smaller size gives it a different tone. However the LG models may be braced, they are generally used as fingerpicking guitars or "folksy" flatpick guitars. The price of 10 k for such a guitar (even in totally unused vintage condition) is completely out of the picture.

    If it were a J-45 though the price would not necessarily be out of the ballpark even though it would be considered high.
    Olaf

  3. The following members say thank you to grassrootphilosopher for this post:


  4. #3
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,039

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Agree that it's a wartime LG2. Not sure how one could tell the difference between LG1 and 2 during wartime as they were supposedly the same bracing, just different wood quality. (Per Gibson's Fabulous Flat Tops). The FON isn't in Spann's book. But would fit in with the 1940-45 timeline. Checking the Kalamazoo Gals book, it appears this was probably shipped in 1943 as the neck block appears to be poplar which was used that year (page 185).

    Overpriced, IMO. Even a J45 would need some special features like maple back and sides to be worth that much. Especially with a lifting bridge. It does appear the cracks on the top have been repaired.
    Brentrup Model 23, Boeh A5 #37, Gibson A Jr., Big Muddy M-11, Coombe Classical flattop, Strad-O-Lin
    https://www.facebook.com/LauluAika/
    https://www.lauluaika.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/Longtine-Am...14404553312723

  5. #4
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI.
    Posts
    7,486

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    That’s cool!
    Too rich for my blood.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  6. #5
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,859

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The bridge is sure shiny...
    Looks like the top has had cracks glued and either refinished or over-sprayed, bridge and all.
    I've had an early 50s LG-2 for years, in need of a back. I've been waiting for an LG 1,2,3 to show up with a trashed top and neck so I could grab the back.
    BTW, my LG-2 is X-braced. I believe only the LG-1 is ladder braced and that is how you tell 1 & 2 apart, in later years at least.

  7. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    The bridge is sure shiny...
    Looks like the top has had cracks glued and either refinished or over-sprayed, bridge and all.
    I've had an early 50s LG-2 for years, in need of a back. I've been waiting for an LG 1,2,3 to show up with a trashed top and neck so I could grab the back.
    BTW, my LG-2 is X-braced. I believe only the LG-1 is ladder braced and that is how you tell 1 & 2 apart, in later years at least.
    You are right John, the LG-2 is X braced.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  8. #7
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    LG-1's were all ladder braced. LG-2's were all X braced. From the outside, they appear identical. Any minor differences in wood quality or finish color are not consistent enough from instrument to instrument to distinguish one model from the other with any degree of certainty.

    If I were to hazard a guess whether this is a 1 or 2, I would lean towards 1 because of the width of the top grain. But there is no way to confirm that without examining the bracing.

    The bridge is coming loose on this instrument.

    Gibson did lacquer some of their bridges at the factory in the 30's and early 40's, sometimes quite heavily; but the practice was not at all consistent. I think the instrument has been heavily buffed; and perhaps oversprayed, perhaps not. I see no evidence that it has been stripped and re-finished. But it doesn't matter-- because of the deep scratches and top cracks, this instrument is certainly not worth even $5k, and certainly not 10k or 34k by any stretch of the imagination.

    There is something very wrong going on here. At this moment, the current bid is 34K. Banner LG-2's typically bring no more than $5,000 or so [though some folks try unsuccessfully to get more], and they probably shouldn't bring even that much. Either someone is bid fixing, or Goodwill has their decimal point placed too far to the right.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-22-2020 at 11:34am.

  9. #8
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    591

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Thats not a 10k Guitar at any rate..

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to slimt For This Useful Post:


  11. #9
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    I see that Goodwill was indeed displaying the price with the decimal point in the wrong place. They have fixed the problem and the current bid is now $3,760.00.

    If I was looking for a guitar and came across one in similar condition, with no doubt about the originality of the finish, that's about the most I would want to pay. And I would have to really like the instrument. And that would only be if the instrument was confirmed as being an LG-2.

    I can't recall if I've ever seen a banner LG-1, but I know some were made. Does anyone else remember seeing one?

    And if anybody is considering placing a bid, be advised that despite the conflicting statements in the ad, the bridge definitely is lifting and will need to be re-glued.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-22-2020 at 12:43pm.

  12. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  13. #10

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Being vague seems like a weird strategy when selling a vintage guitar, but it is getting a lot of bids, so what do I know.......?

    Gibson usually stamps the model number in ink inside on the reinforcing back ribbon clearly visible through the soundhole -- there is a shot of this, but it can't be enlarged enough to be read clearly.....

    People were happy to bid $4722.99 for this without better pictures or even knowing the model number.................amazing!

    There must be a certain psychology at work, that ONLY works online, again - being vague on purpose, something to the effect of "OMG, I found an old Gibson on shopgoodwill, and, wait a minute, it's a BANNER and I'm gonna win it -- I'm probably the only one who noticed it is a banner...........!!!!" Yep, you and 40 million other vintage guitar fans!

    Last time I checked, $4722.99 is a lot of money!

    The big question, "where are all these gullible bidders when I try to sell something online???"

    I would accept this as an isolated example, but it seems we discuss something similar almost every week on this forum.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jeff Mando For This Useful Post:


  15. #11
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    591

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    The bridge is sure shiny...
    Looks like the top has had cracks glued and either refinished or over-sprayed, bridge and all.
    I've had an early 50s LG-2 for years, in need of a back. I've been waiting for an LG 1,2,3 to show up with a trashed top and neck so I could grab the back.
    BTW, my LG-2 is X-braced. I believe only the LG-1 is ladder braced and that is how you tell 1 & 2 apart, in later years at least.
    Actually these banner LG1s were X braced till after the banner logo was dropped. Then they went to a ladder brace. These are pretty rare guitars. This is where JT comes in on the Kalamazoo gals. His info is great.

  16. The following members say thank you to slimt for this post:


  17. #12
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    There may be a reason for the increasing bids on this instrument.
    After careful examination of the pictures, it looks like this one might have a maple back, although the pictures are too dark for me to say so with a certainty.

    For those who are enthralled by LG's, SJ's, and J-45's with maple backs, I will add the following caveat: Most, if not all of the maple instruments of those particular models are believed to have been built with laminated backs and sides.

    I suppose if this guitar is indeed maple, some might consider that to be justification for the current price of $4722. Personally, for that kind of money, I would rather find a really good L-00 or a nice '40's Martin 00-18.

    I can find no references to X-braced LG-1's in any source that I have on hand. Gruhn's Guide and "Those Fabulous Gibson Flat-top Guitars" by Whitford, Vinopal, and Erlewine both specifically state that all LG-1's were ladder braced.

    Sunburst, you might just have to make a new back for your LG-2. I've got a good recipe for matching the Gibson brown finishes from that period, and it is pretty easy to do. I'll be glad to pass it on to you if you're interested.

  18. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  19. #13
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    591

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    There may be a reason for the increasing bids on this instrument.
    After careful examination of the pictures, it looks like this one might have a maple back, although the pictures are too dark for me to say so with a certainty.

    For those who are enthralled by LG's, SJ's, and J-45's with maple backs, I will add the following caveat: Most, if not all of the maple instruments of those particular models are believed to have been built with laminated backs and sides.

    I suppose if this guitar is indeed maple, some might consider that to be justification for the current price of $4722. Personally, for that kind of money, I would rather find a really good L-00 or a nice '40's Martin 00-18.

    I can find no references to X-braced LG-1's in any source that I have on hand. Gruhn's Guide and "Those Fabulous Gibson Flat-top Guitars" by Whitford, Vinopal, and Erlewine both specifically state that all LG-1's were ladder braced.

    Sunburst, you might just have to make a new back for your LG-2. I've got a good recipe for matching the Gibson brown finishes from that period, and it is pretty easy to do. I'll be glad to pass it on to you if you're interested.
    https://forum.gibson.com/topic/76351-1942-lg-1/

    And I as usual could be very much wrong. I did read as well in 42 ladder brace done. So who knows.

  20. #14
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Well, if Mr. Thomas is correct about wartime LG-1's having X-braced mahogany tops, then the Goodwill instrument would most likely be an LG-2-- its top is clearly spruce. That is, if it is indeed X-braced.

    I have seen at least one war time LG with a mahogany top and banner logo. That was a few years ago at a store in middle Tennessee. At that time, everybody just called it an LG-2 with mahogany top. I don't recall whether or not I checked to see how that one was braced. And I've heard of a couple of others like it over the years.

    But one thing I'm sure of, nothing can be considered to be consistent about Gibson's wartime models. I've seen mahogany used for tops on J-45's, SJ's, and LG's, maple back and sides on all the available models usually made in mahogany, and even a combination of maple and mahogany for the backs and sides on an instrument. I've even seen a late L-00 with maple back and sides. I've seen necks made in 3 and 5 pieces, poplar neck blocks, bridge plates made of what looked like wood salvaged from old palettes, etc. The order of the day was to do whatever was necessary to get an instrument out the door, despite war time shortages of materials.

    While I do not recall seeing one, I would not be at all surprised if there are some war time ladder braced LG's out there, with either a mahogany or a spruce top.

    I've also seen materials substitutions on war time Martins, but they were generally more minor in nature. One example was a '45 D-18 with celluloid bindings around the top and rosewood bindings around the back.

    And whatever the specs and probable model name on the original wholesale invoice, an LG would have to both sound earth-shatteringly good and be in unusually clean condition for me to even consider paying anywhere near the price the Goodwill guitar will bring. I hope the new owner will be happy.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-23-2020 at 4:00pm.

  21. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  22. #15
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The last really expensive guitar I saw on Shopgoodwill was a Ramirez classical guitar with a big repaired crack in the top. It was listed twice -- I'm thinking perhaps the original bidder didn't pay, or there might be a return policy on at least some items. IIRC the selling price was lower the second time.

    We'll see if this one comes back.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  23. #16
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    I don't think it will come back. LG-2's are very popular right now, and people covet the banner logo. Despite the generally flat market, LG's have significantly increased in price over the last ten years. I'm not sure of the reason, except possibly that Chris Stapleton plays one from time to time. J-45's have also gone up quite a bit.

  24. #17
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,859

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    I've seen at lest one banner J-45 with a mahogany top. They were using anything that would work in those days.

  25. #18
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    591

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I've seen at lest one banner J-45 with a mahogany top. They were using anything that would work in those days.
    I sold a 43 banner J45 last year. With a mahogany top ,sides and back. And no truss rod. It was a nice guitar.

  26. #19
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The war time plant manager's dilemma: What are we going to run out of this month, and what are we going to do about it?

    I think that the only things that Gibson did not run out of at one time or another during the war were pickguard material and thick white binding. They must have bought a huge supply of it in 1940 or 1941. At various times, they ran out of spruce, mahogany, steel, and plastic rosette material.

    We have no concept of what it was like to live through a world war. Gas rationing, victory gardens, steel shortages, no new automobiles, etc. The list goes on and on.

    My father was in Patton's infantry. It changed his life forever.

    On my piano is a picture of my father, my grandmother, and my uncle's young wife taken about 1942 or so. It was taken before Dad turned 18 and went overseas. My aunt is there because my uncle was already fighting in Europe, and in those days, if a family had a married son in the army, it was common for the young wife to live with her husband's parents.

  27. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  28. #20

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Hello, folks, John Thomas, the Kalamazoo Gals guy, here. My ears were burning.

    To answer a minor question in this thread, yes, the first issue LG-1s were X-braced. Gibson only shopped 139 of them, 138 in 1943 and 1 in 1944. Like all first-issue Banners, these were beautiful and highly decorated guitars, with multiple purfling top and back and fancy rosettes. Unlike the LG-2s and LG-3s, the LG1s had mahogany tops. The finish was like no other in Gibson's history. Here's my LG-1, shipped June 23, 1943, held by Jennifer Nettles, of Sugarland (Emily Saliers of the Indigo Girls is holding my battered and beautiful went-to-WWII 1943 SJ(:


  29. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to John Thomas For This Useful Post:


  30. #21
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    There's a stage musical about Sister Rosetta Tharpe that I went to see in Seattle, back when going to stage musicals was something people did. Among the instruments played by the lead actor was a banner-headstock Gibson -- but she was playing it while depicting events that took place in the mid-'30s. By the end of the '30s the show had her already playing a white Gibson SG electric like the one she was known for playing in the '60s.

    I am not a guitar geek by any stretch, as the title of this thread will show ... but even I knew that the use of those two guitars was anachronistic. That and Goodwill are the only places I've spotted a banner guitar in the wild recently.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  31. #22
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    That's an interesting instrument, John. It's quite different from other mahogany topped banners that I have seen, which all had typical period sunburst top finishes.
    Is the top finish on your guitar transparent or opaque?

  32. #23
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,859

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    One of the more unusual banner LG-2s I've had come through the shop has a mahogany top, triangular maple neck insert (like mandolins) with no adjustable rod, and the top glued over the neck dovetail. As repairmen we've all heard of those and some of us have had the "privilege" of encountering them.
    I believe, as some others do, that those guitars were re-topped for some reason before leaving the factory.

    I have some pictures of part of that repair if anyone wants to see them I can post some, but they aren't very good pics.

  33. #24
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Yes, please post them even if they're not clear. I have heard of them, but have not encountered one. I have also heard that they appeared fairly often during the war. The reason for assembling an instrument that way eludes me.

    A fellow repairman I know has also encountered a covered dovetail on a Martin. One more thing to be aware of when executing a neck set.

  34. #25
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,859

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Some pics then...
    The triangle of the maple neck insert is visible through the peghead finish.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	V.peghead.jpg 
Views:	168 
Size:	84.8 KB 
ID:	188093

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •