Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 47 of 47

Thread: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

  1. #26
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    14,768

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    When beginning the neck, working my putty knife under the fingerboard extender just never felt right; too much doughy resistance. Turns out there was a spruce shim (edges painted black) under the extender and my knife was going into that.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shim.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	38.8 KB 
ID:	188094
    I didn't know why it was there, so I continued with removing the neck.
    You can see the end of the maple insert in the picture as well as the piece of mahogany top wood and spruce shim trapped between the dovetail and the fingerboard.
    Last edited by sunburst; Aug-24-2020 at 12:09am.

  2. #27
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    14,768

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Going back a little bit:
    I drilled through the 15th fret slot and steamed the neck joint as usual. The dovetail released reasonably easily and the neck would wiggle every which way, but it wouldn't come out! That's when I began to suspect the top-over-dovetail. I sawed through the center of the fret slot with a razor saw and through the top below, then used force to remove the neck, splitting the top wood to the sides of the dovetail.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	spruce.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	42.7 KB 
ID:	188095
    After some cleanup, these little binding tabs were left.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tabs.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	34.4 KB 
ID:	188096
    In order for things to go back together and fit correctly I had to make a new shim to maintain the same neck heel position. Rather than spruce I used rosewood to match the fingerboard.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shim.new.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	103.7 KB 
ID:	188097

  3. #28
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    14,768

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    So here's what I think happened.
    Something happened to the top of the guitar; split, damaged by an accident, who knows, but it had to be replaced after the neck was installed. If the fingerboard was already in place, it was removed and the top was removed from the box. The top surface of the rim was cleaned up, removing some wood, and that left the neck heel standing proud of the top surface of the rim, but the top of the dovetail cut down along with the top surface of the rim. The new top was glue on over the dovetail and the spruce shim was added to give the fingerboard a gluing surface with the new, lower top position. I'm not sure if binding was already in place of if it was applied later and slipped under the neck heel, but it resulted in the little binding tabs sticking up.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	binding.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	8.2 KB 
ID:	188098
    The binding width looks pretty normal around the guitar, so perhaps the binding went on after the top replacement. Hard to tell.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Interesting, but.............REGARDLESS -- mahogany top, x-braced, maple, etc. -- does any of that make it worth almost $5 grand? That sounds like top retail to me for a small-bodied Gibson -- certainly not the deal of the century, IMHO, Banner or not. If it were a Banner J-45, that's different story, but still not a giveaway......

    People sure get caught up in these Shopgoodwill auctions....................

  5. #30

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Some pics then...
    The triangle of the maple neck insert is visible through the peghead finish.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	V.peghead.jpg 
Views:	44 
Size:	84.8 KB 
ID:	188093
    All Banners from about late 1943 to mid 1944 had these triangular maple inserts in their necks instead of metal truss rods. The War Production Board issued an order limiting stringed instruments to metal content of no more than 10% of the instruments total weight. At the same time, Martin replaced its metal rods (theirs were non adjustable, of course) with an ebony insert.

    Here's a recent video of me playing and talking about my 1943 went-to-WWII trussrod-less SJ:


  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John Thomas For This Useful Post:


  7. #31

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    That's an interesting instrument, John. It's quite different from other mahogany topped banners that I have seen, which all had typical period sunburst top finishes.
    Is the top finish on your guitar transparent or opaque?
    Thanks! It's transparent. Although Gibson applied a similar finish to the 1920s and 1930s all-mohagany L-0s, this finish is limited, as best I know, to the 139 Banner LG-1s. A couple of better pics (taken inside the old Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1943 LG-1 at 225 Parsons Street 2.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	258.2 KB 
ID:	188101
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1943 LG-1 at 225 Parsons Street.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	46.9 KB 
ID:	188100  

  8. The following members say thank you to John Thomas for this post:


  9. #32
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,089

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Thomas View Post
    Thanks! It's transparent. Although Gibson applied a similar finish to the 1920s and 1930s all-mohagany L-0s, this finish is limited, as best I know, to the 139 Banner LG-1s. A couple of better pics (taken inside the old Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1943 LG-1 at 225 Parsons Street 2.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	258.2 KB 
ID:	188101
    Isn't it the same finish used on the one batch of wartime Kalamazoo KG guitars? Or is yours darker? https://www.williesguitars.com/produ...-kalamazoo-kg/
    2008 Weber Gallatin F, 2018 Collings MT, 1989 Flatiron Performer A, 1935 Gibson A-50, 1929 Gibson A Jr., 2018 Eastman MDO-305
    http://ericplatt.weebly.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/LauluAika/
    https://www.lauluaika.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/Longtine-Pl...4404553312723/

  10. #33

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Isn't it the same finish used on the one batch of wartime Kalamazoo KG guitars? Or is yours darker? https://www.williesguitars.com/produ...-kalamazoo-kg/
    Yes, I think that it's the same finish as on the Kalamazoo-brand equivalent. Thanks for reminding me!

  11. The following members say thank you to John Thomas for this post:


  12. #34

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    John Thomas - the shopgoodwill Banner Gibson appears to be spruce with a traditional Gibson sunburst and single binding -- very different from your guitar. Would you say the shopgoodwill guitar is an LG-2? Shopgoodwill guitar also has a trussrod and riveted tuners.

  13. #35
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    40.1646 N, 74.2083 W
    Posts
    24,012

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    ...riveted tuners.
    Every set of those tuners I've had in my hands appeared to have a glob of brass just dropped on top of the cog. I never even considered they were using rivets and I don't think they were. Granted, they were all Kluson tuners on mandolins. There were a few that weren't anywhere near uniform.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  14. #36

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Every set of those tuners I've had in my hands appeared to have a glob of brass just dropped on the top cog. I never even considered they were using rivets and I don't think they were. Granted, they were all Kluson tuners on mandolins.
    I agree, "riveted" is just the word the internet seems to have adopted for describing wartime Gibson tuners. I think "pressed in" might be a more accurate term -- all this was supposedly to save a teeny-tiny screw for the war effort......anyway it seems to be a simple way to date a wartime era instrument with reasonable accuracy.

  15. The following members say thank you to Jeff Mando for this post:


  16. #37
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    429

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    I have a single three in a row spare pressed post tuner. From 1946. I am looking for a match for the other side of the peg head.

  17. #38

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    John Thomas - the shopgoodwill Banner Gibson appears to be spruce with a traditional Gibson sunburst and single binding -- very different from your guitar. Would you say the shopgoodwill guitar is an LG-2? Shopgoodwill guitar also has a trussrod and riveted tuners.
    Yes. It's an LG-2.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John Thomas For This Useful Post:


  19. #39
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    12,180

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    As I more or less predicted, the Goodwill sale must have hit a snag. The guitar has been relisted; they're calling at a J-45 this time, which we have established it is not.

    There is a reserve, which has not been met at $3500.

    https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/101985674
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy Wood Thormahlen Andersen Bacorn Yanuziello Fender National Gibson Franke Fuchs Aceto Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  20. The following members say thank you to mrmando for this post:


  21. #40
    Registered User CWRoyds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Rafael, Ca
    Posts
    670

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Thomas View Post
    All Banners from about late 1943 to mid 1944 had these triangular maple inserts in their necks instead of metal truss rods. The War Production Board issued an order limiting stringed instruments to metal content of no more than 10% of the instruments total weight. At the same time, Martin replaced its metal rods (theirs were non adjustable, of course) with an ebony insert.

    Here's a recent video of me playing and talking about my 1943 went-to-WWII trussrod-less SJ:

    WOW!!!
    That SJ sounds amazing.
    I love the Southern Jumbo.
    I have a 1949 Southern Jumbo.
    Incredible deep tone, similar to the one you have.
    Bought it when I was 15 back in 1983 for $350 from an old bluegrass banjo player in Moneterey Tenn.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Gibson  SJ - 1.jpeg 
Views:	9 
Size:	322.4 KB 
ID:	188206
    Mandolins: Northfield 5-Bar Artist Model "Old Dog", J Bovier F5 Special, Gibson A-00 (1940)
    Fiddles: 1920s Strad copy, 1930s Strad copy, Liu Xi T20, Liu Xi T19+ Dark.
    Guitars: Taylor 514c (1995), Gibson Southern Jumbo (1940s), Gibson L-48 (1940s), Les Paul Custom (1978), Fender Strat (Black/RWFB) (1984), Fender Strat (Candy Apple Red/MFB) (1985).
    Sitars: Hiren Roy KP (1980s), Naskar (1970s), Naskar (1960s).
    Misc: 8 Course Lute (L.K.Brown)

  22. #41
    Teacher, luthier
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    1,906

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The pictures of the top are clearer in the re-listed offering.
    5 top cracks are clearly visible. Despite visual evidence to the contrary, their staff "Evaluator" still claims "The bridge does not have lift."

    The most recent bid was $3600, reserve not met, with 5 hours to go.
    If there's a last minute bidding rush, I will be surprised.

    I think it more likely that the reserve will not be met and the instrument will be re-listed again; unless Goodwill decides to reconsider their reserve and contacts the high bidder privately.

    I suppose that someone might take a chance that the body is maple and put in a high bid. If any of y'all are considering it, be advised that the bridge will need to be removed and re-glued, there is a likelihood that the cracks will need to be repaired, and it is not unusual for Gibsons from this period to have several loose braces. The repair bill to put this instrument into good playing condition and address any structural problems could run anywhere from $150 to as much as $1000, depending on the number of glue joints that will have to be addressed and whether or not it will need a neck set.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-31-2020 at 2:28pm.

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rcc56 For This Useful Post:


  24. #42
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    12,180

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Well, at least Goodwill responded to my email by noting in the description that it's an LG-2, although they didn't change the title of the ad. Perhaps the third time will be the charm.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy Wood Thormahlen Andersen Bacorn Yanuziello Fender National Gibson Franke Fuchs Aceto Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  25. #43
    Teacher, luthier
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    1,906

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Auction ended, last bid was $3600, reserve not met.
    I won't be surprised if it is listed again. If so, it will be interesting to see whether or not they list it with the high reserve.

    For whatever it's worth, the more recent pictures make me believe the back is probably maple, but I'm not 100% sure.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-31-2020 at 9:08pm.

  26. #44

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Guys, help me out! What am I missing? I just don't see $3600 worth of fun here. As an academic exercise, sure, it is an interesting guitar. As a bargain, it is certainly NOT!

    TOP CRACKS. Hard to get excited about any acoustic guitar with top cracks. Again, wow! I don't get it. Yes, it is a banner. A repaired side crack I can deal with....But, it has 5 top cracks -- and people are still bidding $3600? It is a beater. This MIGHT be a great sounding guitar, but it would only be interesting to me for a bargain price, at $500-700, sure, why not? But, if you want to pay retail THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOP GOODWILL, is there? If you want to pay retail, you can go to Carter, Gruhn, Elderly, Gryphon, etc. and they can tell you the model, the year, what woods are used, etc. and guarantee the guitar to be what they say it is.

    But for me the top cracks devalue it by at least half, moneywise. Desirability-wise it devalues it by much more, IMHO. There is a reason vintage guitars are advertised as "crack free."

    Following this auction has shown us their "staff evaluator" is not an expert in vintage instruments. For me, the only reason to shopgoodwill for a vintage instrument would be price and they don't want to let this one go cheap it seems.

  27. #45
    Teacher, luthier
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    1,906

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The thinking that might go along with the $3600 bid might go something like this:

    Wow! It's got that ultra-cool banner logo! And [insert name of favorite singer] plays one that's got plenty of mojo just like this one! And this might be my only shot at a way-rare maple Gibson! etc, etc.

    I stopped looking for logic in the vintage instrument market a long time ago.

    My problem has been that whenever I've gotten a decent old instrument in need of repair at a good price to fix up and sell, I couldn't seem find that $3600 buyer. Instead, I get people who say "What? It's not in 100% pristine original condition? It doesn't have the original strings? 3 frets have been replaced?"

    All I know is that if I got the Goodwill instrument at 1/4 of the price and got it into decent shape, I would be very lucky to make a profit on it.

  28. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:

    Cobalt 

  29. #46
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    12,180

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Back for round 3 (identified as an LG-2 this time)

    https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/102369153
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy Wood Thormahlen Andersen Bacorn Yanuziello Fender National Gibson Franke Fuchs Aceto Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  30. #47

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Notice how it suddenly looks smaller now that is doesn't say J-45...............................

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •