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Thread: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

  1. #26
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    When beginning the neck, working my putty knife under the fingerboard extender just never felt right; too much doughy resistance. Turns out there was a spruce shim (edges painted black) under the extender and my knife was going into that.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I didn't know why it was there, so I continued with removing the neck.
    You can see the end of the maple insert in the picture as well as the piece of mahogany top wood and spruce shim trapped between the dovetail and the fingerboard.
    Last edited by sunburst; Aug-24-2020 at 12:09am.

  2. #27
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Going back a little bit:
    I drilled through the 15th fret slot and steamed the neck joint as usual. The dovetail released reasonably easily and the neck would wiggle every which way, but it wouldn't come out! That's when I began to suspect the top-over-dovetail. I sawed through the center of the fret slot with a razor saw and through the top below, then used force to remove the neck, splitting the top wood to the sides of the dovetail.
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    After some cleanup, these little binding tabs were left.
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    In order for things to go back together and fit correctly I had to make a new shim to maintain the same neck heel position. Rather than spruce I used rosewood to match the fingerboard.
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  3. #28
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    So here's what I think happened.
    Something happened to the top of the guitar; split, damaged by an accident, who knows, but it had to be replaced after the neck was installed. If the fingerboard was already in place, it was removed and the top was removed from the box. The top surface of the rim was cleaned up, removing some wood, and that left the neck heel standing proud of the top surface of the rim, but the top of the dovetail cut down along with the top surface of the rim. The new top was glue on over the dovetail and the spruce shim was added to give the fingerboard a gluing surface with the new, lower top position. I'm not sure if binding was already in place of if it was applied later and slipped under the neck heel, but it resulted in the little binding tabs sticking up.
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    The binding width looks pretty normal around the guitar, so perhaps the binding went on after the top replacement. Hard to tell.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Interesting, but.............REGARDLESS -- mahogany top, x-braced, maple, etc. -- does any of that make it worth almost $5 grand? That sounds like top retail to me for a small-bodied Gibson -- certainly not the deal of the century, IMHO, Banner or not. If it were a Banner J-45, that's different story, but still not a giveaway......

    People sure get caught up in these Shopgoodwill auctions....................

  5. #30

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Some pics then...
    The triangle of the maple neck insert is visible through the peghead finish.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    All Banners from about late 1943 to mid 1944 had these triangular maple inserts in their necks instead of metal truss rods. The War Production Board issued an order limiting stringed instruments to metal content of no more than 10% of the instruments total weight. At the same time, Martin replaced its metal rods (theirs were non adjustable, of course) with an ebony insert.

    Here's a recent video of me playing and talking about my 1943 went-to-WWII trussrod-less SJ:


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  7. #31

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    That's an interesting instrument, John. It's quite different from other mahogany topped banners that I have seen, which all had typical period sunburst top finishes.
    Is the top finish on your guitar transparent or opaque?
    Thanks! It's transparent. Although Gibson applied a similar finish to the 1920s and 1930s all-mohagany L-0s, this finish is limited, as best I know, to the 139 Banner LG-1s. A couple of better pics (taken inside the old Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #32
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Thomas View Post
    Thanks! It's transparent. Although Gibson applied a similar finish to the 1920s and 1930s all-mohagany L-0s, this finish is limited, as best I know, to the 139 Banner LG-1s. A couple of better pics (taken inside the old Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Isn't it the same finish used on the one batch of wartime Kalamazoo KG guitars? Or is yours darker? https://www.williesguitars.com/produ...-kalamazoo-kg/
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  10. #33

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Isn't it the same finish used on the one batch of wartime Kalamazoo KG guitars? Or is yours darker? https://www.williesguitars.com/produ...-kalamazoo-kg/
    Yes, I think that it's the same finish as on the Kalamazoo-brand equivalent. Thanks for reminding me!

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  12. #34

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    John Thomas - the shopgoodwill Banner Gibson appears to be spruce with a traditional Gibson sunburst and single binding -- very different from your guitar. Would you say the shopgoodwill guitar is an LG-2? Shopgoodwill guitar also has a trussrod and riveted tuners.

  13. #35
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    ...riveted tuners.
    Every set of those tuners I've had in my hands appeared to have a glob of brass just dropped on top of the cog. I never even considered they were using rivets and I don't think they were. Granted, they were all Kluson tuners on mandolins. There were a few that weren't anywhere near uniform.
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  14. #36

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Every set of those tuners I've had in my hands appeared to have a glob of brass just dropped on the top cog. I never even considered they were using rivets and I don't think they were. Granted, they were all Kluson tuners on mandolins.
    I agree, "riveted" is just the word the internet seems to have adopted for describing wartime Gibson tuners. I think "pressed in" might be a more accurate term -- all this was supposedly to save a teeny-tiny screw for the war effort......anyway it seems to be a simple way to date a wartime era instrument with reasonable accuracy.

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  16. #37
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    I have a single three in a row spare pressed post tuner. From 1946. I am looking for a match for the other side of the peg head.

  17. #38

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    John Thomas - the shopgoodwill Banner Gibson appears to be spruce with a traditional Gibson sunburst and single binding -- very different from your guitar. Would you say the shopgoodwill guitar is an LG-2? Shopgoodwill guitar also has a trussrod and riveted tuners.
    Yes. It's an LG-2.

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  19. #39
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    As I more or less predicted, the Goodwill sale must have hit a snag. The guitar has been relisted; they're calling at a J-45 this time, which we have established it is not.

    There is a reserve, which has not been met at $3500.

    https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/101985674
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  21. #40
    Registered User CWRoyds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by John Thomas View Post
    All Banners from about late 1943 to mid 1944 had these triangular maple inserts in their necks instead of metal truss rods. The War Production Board issued an order limiting stringed instruments to metal content of no more than 10% of the instruments total weight. At the same time, Martin replaced its metal rods (theirs were non adjustable, of course) with an ebony insert.

    Here's a recent video of me playing and talking about my 1943 went-to-WWII trussrod-less SJ:

    WOW!!!
    That SJ sounds amazing.
    I love the Southern Jumbo.
    I have a 1949 Southern Jumbo.
    Incredible deep tone, similar to the one you have.
    Bought it when I was 15 back in 1983 for $350 from an old bluegrass banjo player in Moneterey Tenn.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #41
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The pictures of the top are clearer in the re-listed offering.
    5 top cracks are clearly visible. Despite visual evidence to the contrary, their staff "Evaluator" still claims "The bridge does not have lift."

    The most recent bid was $3600, reserve not met, with 5 hours to go.
    If there's a last minute bidding rush, I will be surprised.

    I think it more likely that the reserve will not be met and the instrument will be re-listed again; unless Goodwill decides to reconsider their reserve and contacts the high bidder privately.

    I suppose that someone might take a chance that the body is maple and put in a high bid. If any of y'all are considering it, be advised that the bridge will need to be removed and re-glued, there is a likelihood that the cracks will need to be repaired, and it is not unusual for Gibsons from this period to have several loose braces. The repair bill to put this instrument into good playing condition and address any structural problems could run anywhere from $150 to as much as $1000, depending on the number of glue joints that will have to be addressed and whether or not it will need a neck set.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-31-2020 at 2:28pm.

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  24. #42
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Well, at least Goodwill responded to my email by noting in the description that it's an LG-2, although they didn't change the title of the ad. Perhaps the third time will be the charm.
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  25. #43
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Auction ended, last bid was $3600, reserve not met.
    I won't be surprised if it is listed again. If so, it will be interesting to see whether or not they list it with the high reserve.

    For whatever it's worth, the more recent pictures make me believe the back is probably maple, but I'm not 100% sure.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-31-2020 at 9:08pm.

  26. #44

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Guys, help me out! What am I missing? I just don't see $3600 worth of fun here. As an academic exercise, sure, it is an interesting guitar. As a bargain, it is certainly NOT!

    TOP CRACKS. Hard to get excited about any acoustic guitar with top cracks. Again, wow! I don't get it. Yes, it is a banner. A repaired side crack I can deal with....But, it has 5 top cracks -- and people are still bidding $3600? It is a beater. This MIGHT be a great sounding guitar, but it would only be interesting to me for a bargain price, at $500-700, sure, why not? But, if you want to pay retail THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOP GOODWILL, is there? If you want to pay retail, you can go to Carter, Gruhn, Elderly, Gryphon, etc. and they can tell you the model, the year, what woods are used, etc. and guarantee the guitar to be what they say it is.

    But for me the top cracks devalue it by at least half, moneywise. Desirability-wise it devalues it by much more, IMHO. There is a reason vintage guitars are advertised as "crack free."

    Following this auction has shown us their "staff evaluator" is not an expert in vintage instruments. For me, the only reason to shopgoodwill for a vintage instrument would be price and they don't want to let this one go cheap it seems.

  27. #45
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    The thinking that might go along with the $3600 bid might go something like this:

    Wow! It's got that ultra-cool banner logo! And [insert name of favorite singer] plays one that's got plenty of mojo just like this one! And this might be my only shot at a way-rare maple Gibson! etc, etc.

    I stopped looking for logic in the vintage instrument market a long time ago.

    My problem has been that whenever I've gotten a decent old instrument in need of repair at a good price to fix up and sell, I couldn't seem find that $3600 buyer. Instead, I get people who say "What? It's not in 100% pristine original condition? It doesn't have the original strings? 3 frets have been replaced?"

    All I know is that if I got the Goodwill instrument at 1/4 of the price and got it into decent shape, I would be very lucky to make a profit on it.

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  29. #46
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Back for round 3 (identified as an LG-2 this time)

    https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/102369153
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  30. #47

    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Notice how it suddenly looks smaller now that is doesn't say J-45...............................

  31. #48
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    Oh boy, another banner Gibson on SGW:

    https://shopgoodwill.com/item/141979306
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

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  32. #49
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    $6666 for an LG????
    I know the market has changed since this thread started 2 years ago, but . . .

    Either someone is really hard up for a banner LG, or I suspect a shill.
    At any rate, they won't get it from me.

    I've had a couple of LG's pass over the workbench, and they were decent enough, but $6000 + will buy a much better instrument.
    And yes, I see asking prices are way up, but if I did really really want one, it would have to be in much better shape for $6600.

    A converted HG-00 will cost $1000 less, and be a much better instrument.
    Last edited by rcc56; Apr-12-2022 at 7:37pm.

  33. #50
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banner headstock Gibson J-45 at Goodwill, bidders go nuts

    43 bids and it ended at $7003. You would have to add the repair bill to that as well.
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