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Thread: Double Standard

  1. #1
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    Default Double Standard

    I usually check this forum quite regularly, about 5 days a week, and I've noticed a double-standard in some of the responses.

    It's time to play devil's advocate.

    In a recent thread, someone brought up sound posts in mandolins. Responses came quickly. All admonished the OP telling him it's been brought up many times before and you should have searched the forum first.

    On the other hand, at least once a week, someone says, “I've got a new mandolin, What kind of strap should I use?” or “I want a new mandolin. What kind should I get?” and/or “What's the best pick to use?” Everyone jumps in and offers suggestions like they were sales agents (and maybe some are). A search of those subjects would produce enough responses to fill a small library. How come no one suggests that the OP do that search?
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    same with blue chips and tone-gards..............

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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    same with blue chips and tone-gards..............
    ...and Tone-Rites.
    David Hopkins

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    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

  6. #4
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    I noticed the same thing myself. As a newcomer, I started threads that had already been discussed numerous times, and no one criticized me. Here are some other topics that come along regularly. If I'm in the mood, I read them. If not, I don't. I don't know why sound posts in particular annoy people.

    ...I need an inexpensive starter mandolin
    ...I want an upgrade
    ...why do mandolins with a curl cost more?
    ...who or what is your favourite mandolinist, band, mandolin, strings, pick, etc.?
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Seems to me that there might be something useful in dozens, or even hundreds of opinions on most of the topics that are so frequently hashed over here. But, I believe there is pretty much one resounding opinion about soundposts in mandolins: they simply do not work.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Double Standard

    I think the reason for the double standard is this. With the "What strap do I use, what pick do I use ,who is your favorite player type of questions the person is seeking information. They are often a new player who is not aware this has been discussed to death and just want to know.

    The soundpost question, as well as some others that get treated negatively on the luthiers forum, is usually being posed from the viewpoint of "I am new to luthiery and gee look at me I just had a brilliant idea and why aren't none of you guys smart enough to have ever thunk up this brilliance." That attitude gets negative responses.

    The most bitter discussions on the luthier forum have come up with the definition of the words amplification and amplify, where people wanted to run with a non technical and very incorrect definition definition of the word then get into lengthy technical discussions as if they were just as knowledgeable as people who spent their careers working with these things. It is as if someone wanted to come up with their own gut feel, and wrong, definition of what a minor scale is then argue with professionals.

    That forum is a little different from the general forum because some fairly serious professionals post there and some of these past debates have gotten out of hand.

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  10. #7

    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buesseler View Post
    ..........But, I believe there is pretty much one resounding opinion about soundposts in mandolins: they simply do not work.
    I'll repeat, for those who care, what I said in some of those previous posts regarding mandolin soundposts:

    YES, they work as a quick & cheap means to "fix" a mandolin with a sunken top, if you can gain access through the soundholes without removing the back. You are simply jacking up the top to where it is playable.

    NO, it is not the correct way to fix a valuable mandolin, nor will it sound as good as one that has not sunk -- but you have MADE AN UNPLAYABLE INSTRUMENT PLAYABLE, AGAIN -- and that is a good thing, IMHO.

    I'll also repeat the story of my first meeting with David Grisman, 25 years ago when I was working at a vintage shop. I remember he ended up buying a snakehead we had for sale. We talked about a bunch of stuff including his first Loar and how hard it was to come up with the money. I was working on a mandolin with a collapsed top and he told the story of how he "fixed" one of his with a stovebolt (his words) and some nuts from the hardware store jammed in there! I asked him if it worked? He said, "sure, it made it playable! So, I store that tidbit along with the story of John D'Angelico patching bridge plates with Formica in a special place when it comes to guitar repair. After all, if Dawg says it is OK, then I'm good with it!

    This has allowed me to do "hillbilly necksets" on student guitars that should have been thrown in the trash, but instead are being used to play music on as we speak. So, yep, there is the old school, hot hide glue way of doing things and then there's the local ACE hardware or Walmart way of doing things.......

    I occasionally will use JB Weld, but I draw the line at Gorilla glue........

    I should add that I mean no disrespect to the talented builders and luthiers who do things the "right" way and are able to create genuine works of mandolin art. I am not an artist or luthier, just a repairman and most of my clients have a limited budget and/or the instruments do not warrant repairs that would exceed the value of the instrument itself. In the past, I have worked for shops where the average repair quote was $750-1250 which was still inline with the value of the instrument......I want to fix grandpa's old guitar, etc......
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Aug-02-2020 at 1:52am.

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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Perhaps it is daunting for some folks to even ask a question much less learn the mechanics of searching the forum and finding the answers they seek. Then there are some folks who are just lazy. When on a new adventure like learning to play mandolin during a pandemic, one might have more time to do research or not. Double standard or not, compassion is the way to go.

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    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    I'll repeat, for those who care, what I said in some of those previous posts regarding mandolin soundposts:

    YES, they work as a quick & cheap means to "fix" a mandolin with a sunken top, if you can gain access through the soundholes without removing the back. You are simply jacking up the top to where it is playable.

    NO, it is not the correct way to fix a valuable mandolin, nor will it sound as good as one that has not sunk -- but you have MADE AN UNPLAYABLE INSTRUMENT PLAYABLE, AGAIN -- and that is a good thing, IMHO.

    I'll also repeat the story of my first meeting with David Grisman, 25 years ago when I was working at a vintage shop. I remember he ended up buying a snakehead we had for sale. We talked about a bunch of stuff including his first Loar and how hard it was to come up with the money. I was working on a mandolin with a collapsed top and he told the story of how he "fixed" one of his with a stovebolt (his words) and some nuts from the hardware store jammed in there! I asked him if it worked? He said, "sure, it made it playable! So, I store that tidbit along with the story of John D'Angelico patching bridge plates with Formica in a special place when it comes to guitar repair. After all, if Dawg says it is OK, then I'm good with it!

    This has allowed me to do "hillbilly necksets" on student guitars that should have been thrown in the trash, but instead are being used to play music on as we speak. So, yep, there is the old school, hot hide glue way of doing things and then there's the local ACE hardware or Walmart way of doing things.......

    I occasionally will use JB Weld, but I draw the line at Gorilla glue........

    I should add that I mean no disrespect to the talented builders and luthiers who do things the "right" way and are able to create genuine works of mandolin art. I am not an artist or luthier, just a repairman and most of my clients have a limited budget and/or the instruments do not warrant repairs that would exceed the value of the instrument itself. In the past, I have worked for shops where the average repair quote was $750-1250 which was still inline with the value of the instrument......I want to fix grandpa's old guitar, etc......
    I've probably mentioned this before, but a friend has a J-45 that is held together with JB Weld. Or maybe Bondo. It's been that way for probably 25 to 30 years. And it's one of the greatest sounding guitars we've ever heard. That's why, even though he could have had it fixed many times over the years he won't. Just don't want to mess with the mojo.

    To the original topic - thing is, some of the basic questions can have answers that change over time. Best upgrade didn't include Northfield a few years ago. Beginner instrument didn't have Eastman 305. And folks keep finding ways to re-design straps. New picks show up all the time and folks get new favorite players. So those questions don't bother me as much.

    FWIW, I did a search yesterday on Gibson A9 and the Cafe didn't show up until the 2nd page. And then it was "what's it worth" were all the topics shown unless you clicked further. So it's not always intuitive. (Of course, it's now at the top since I clicked it yesterday.)

    Oh, and the best "hillbilly neckset" I ever saw was an old Harmony that used a stove bolt. And 2 nuts. The owner left enough of the bolt head showing past the heel to double as a strap button.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Hasn’t there been a thread on this already?


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    Default Re: Double Standard

    I generally don't even answer these but let me try to add some perspective. "What's the best mandolin for me to buy", What's the best strap", "What's the best pick", "What's the best case" etc. changes on a regular basis depending on the item that has captured the hearts and minds of the Cafe population. There was a time when Michael Kelly mandolins were all the rage. Not so much any more. No sense in throwing a past search at those items as things change. Things that don't change such as "Has anyone ever tried to build a mandolin out of matchsticks" doesn't change. There's a history there. The Cafe is a huge library of information. If you need current information like picks and brand names and such you go to the periodicals and read the latest. If you're looking for something historical it's in the stacks, the archive as you will. Do you want to know about sound posts in a mandolin? There is no new information, it's been hashed and rehashed by well known luthiers over the years. You can still choose to ignore that and do whatever you please, that's your choice but I would think anyone that really wanted to know about the subject would want to know about the experience of previous members. If not feel free to not read the thread. The one thing you will find out about the Cafe is that information has always been freely offered by people that know what they are talking about. There are no sections that are private that you can't get into. Nothing is held back. The only thing that limits your discovery of what is here is your ability to find it. We even have threads that will teach you how to search the cafe.

    And to answer BrianWilliam's question, yes we have had threads on this before.

    Carry on.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Okay, y'all win. I'm going back to bed.
    David Hopkins

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    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Thanks for clarifying that, folks.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  20. #14
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Hasn’t there been a thread on this already?

    You should do a search before asking such a question !
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    ... and yet ... I'll add another idea. It pretty much depends on who answers first. We have a ton of people and some are more forgiving of basic questions and others are not. I've found that the first answer generally sets the tone for the rest, although some threads do take on a life of their own. So if a basic/controversial/troll-like question is posted, and you get someone who just isn't into it for whatever reason (bad day, hot, hasn't had lunch, has a caffeine headache, is being bothered by family/pets/bosses/coworkers, just realized they've put on 10 pounds, whatever) they'll be a little sharper answering a question that on some other day they'll answer with kindness. So I'd caution first posters or whoever that if they ask a question and get a 'you should do some research' answer -- nicely put or not -- that they shouldn't take it personally. It could just be the person answering the question is having a bad day.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post

    The soundpost question, as well as some others that get treated negatively on the luthiers forum, is usually being posed from the viewpoint of "I am new to luthiery and gee look at me I just had a brilliant idea and why aren't none of you guys smart enough to have ever thunk up this brilliance." That attitude gets negative responses.
    Well I'm the guy who posted the sound post question on the Builders section and I was not too surprised buy most of the responses. I knew at the time that I should maybe ask my question on the General Discussions section. I love all those guys and read the Builders section frequently. I'm not new to mandolin, started in 1987 when my mother in law gave me her uncle's mandolin when he passed. Still have it and six more. No. I did not think I had the next brilliant idea that nobody thought of before and told myself if it was a good idea Orville probably would have done it. I actually did a search of the words "sound posts" and what came up was information about various post people had made on the MC. I've done some far out modifications to mandolins over the years and don't plan on stopping. All respect to the builders and luthiers here as I've learned so much from them.

  24. #17
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    The most bitter discussions on the luthier forum have come up with the definition of the words amplification and amplify, where people wanted to run with a non technical and very incorrect definition definition of the word then get into lengthy technical discussions as if they were just as knowledgeable as people who spent their careers working with these things. It is as if someone wanted to come up with their own gut feel, and wrong, definition of what a minor scale is then argue with professionals.
    You might want to revisit that characterization of the "amplification" issue. "wanted to run with a non-technical and very incorrect definition definition of the word ..." is simply nonsense. As others pointed out during those discussions, to amplify has a long history of usage that continues to this day and began before electron theory and the harnessing of electricity ever began. Those who claim that discussions of amplification must be limited to electronic amplification are simply asking too much. It is not incorrect in terms of either the English language or general science to say that a sound chamber amplifies sound waves, quite apart from the use of electron tube or solid state amplifier components.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    On the topic of the OP - people can easily dismiss a poster's question by writing "do a search", whether they mean to be helpful or simply dismissive, and this happens all the time. But these are people communicating with people ... I've heard Scott mention in numerous contexts that allowing many new threads to be posted on old topics is generally a good thing in his eyes, for good reasons. Heard him discuss this in some podcast or another, and I think I've seen him weigh in here as well. Live and let live.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    There should be an easy way for a beginner to access all of the previous threads.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    You might want to revisit that characterization of the "amplification" issue. "wanted to run with a non-technical and very incorrect definition definition of the word ..." is simply nonsense. As others pointed out during those discussions, to amplify has a long history of usage that continues to this day and began before electron theory and the harnessing of electricity ever began. Those who claim that discussions of amplification must be limited to electronic amplification are simply asking too much. It is not incorrect in terms of either the English language or general science to say that a sound chamber amplifies sound waves, quite apart from the use of electron tube or solid state amplifier components.
    Of course, the meanings of words can change slowly over time -- and sometimes, even more quickly. That is part of the the nature of a living languages. For example, the word "gay" carried a very different meaning one century ago. Think of the line in the famous Christmas carol Deck the Halls "Don we now our gay apparel...").

    Today, the preferred usage of the word "amplify," with respect to sound, is drawn from its meaning in physics. It comes down to a matter of science. If the net energy of some sound is increased while its other main properties (e.g., its frequency spectrum) remain mostly unchanged, then the sound is said to be "amplified." This amplification can occur by by electronic means, but it need not be. There are other ways to amplify,

    With the modern definition of "amplify," it is simply not true that the sound chamber of an instrument "amplifies" the vibrations of the strings. Strictly speaking, it transduces (not "amplifies") these vibrations into a focused sound. The sound chamber changes the emergent sound field (in space), and also the sound spectrum (tone; timbre), as well as the damping, but it does nothing whatsoever to increase the energy of the emitted sound. That energy comes from the plucked string, and the plucked string alone. This, of course, is a consequence of energy conservation.

    To amplify a sound requires an additional input of energy in some form. And that is the modern understanding of this word, "amplify." I hate to disagree so bluntly here, but it is incorrect "in terms of ... general science to say that a sound chamber amplifies sound waves," as you wrote. Because with a physical understanding of sound and energy, we know that a passive chamber cannot "amplify" anything without being energized in some way.

  28. #21
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Sorry. It was not my original intention to post about amplification in this thread. Blame it on CarlM ... I happened to read his post.

    sblock, we'll have to disagree on this, again. I'm not writing as a luthier, but as one with a background in both linguistics and electron theory. I understand pretty well how electron tube amplifiers and solid state amplifiers work (not "amplifier" in the sense of the product you purchase in a music store, but "amplifier" meaning the component ... the three plate electron tube, or the silicon chip infused with the specific impurities required to create an operational amplifier chip).

    There is no confusion in my mind on the difference between electrical signal amplification (which amplifies not the vibration of a string, but the electrical signal wave it produces), and actual sound wave amplification as performed by a sound chamber (which amplifies not the vibration of a string, but the resulting air compression waves it produces).

    This meaning of amplification is still used in writing the English language today, and can be explained scientifically just as well as electrical amplification can. So your saying that it's incorrect in terms of general science does not make it so. Sorry to be on opposite sides here, but we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

    And the term "gay" retains its earlier meaning in English usage ... and as most often is the case, informs the new usage to a degree.
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    Was David Hopkins asking about thread drift?
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  31. #23
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    I'm not sure I know what "thread drift" is.
    David Hopkins

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    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

  32. #24

    Default Re: Double Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    You might want to revisit that characterization of the "amplification" issue. "wanted to run with a non-technical and very incorrect definition definition of the word ..." is simply nonsense. As others pointed out during those discussions, to amplify has a long history of usage that continues to this day and began before electron theory and the harnessing of electricity ever began. Those who claim that discussions of amplification must be limited to electronic amplification are simply asking too much. It is not incorrect in terms of either the English language or general science to say that a sound chamber amplifies sound waves, quite apart from the use of electron tube or solid state amplifier components.
    You are absolutely wrong. In a technical forum and a technical discussion amplify means to add energy, whether electrical, mechanical or other. It is not limited to electronic amplifiers. There can be mechanical amplifiers where mechanical energy or hydraulic energy is added. A sound chamber does not add energy. It is not an amplifier. When you use the term the way you are trying to do it confuses the discussion and leads to a lot of incorrect, as in conflicting with reality, types of conclusions. In electricity the best analogy would be to a voltage transformer, which steps voltage and current up and down without adding energy.

    No one with any real technical education or background agreed with your definition. A number of people who had zero technical education or background got very stubborn about their imprecise and incorrect definition which lead to the thread becoming rather angry and the people who had some real knowledge and input walking away.

  33. #25
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standard

    You are all out of luck if you were hoping to claim “Double Standard String Band”. I did a search first....

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