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Thread: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

  1. #26
    Mandolin & Mandola maker
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I sure wish the waterborne stuff was up to par, I'm waiting for someone on this forum to give it the thumbs up so I can try it again.
    It is up to par. I use Target Coatings EM2000 which is an alkyd resin based (i.e. an oil varnish) in a water emulsion. It can be brushed or sprayed. I brush it on, but like all finishes it does require good brushing technique. As already stated, if your brushing technique is not good then practice until you get it right. See - http://petercoombe.com/publications/jaamim11.htm
    Peter Coombe - mandolins, mandolas and guitars
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  2. #27

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I tried that about 12 years ago but I was spraying and couldn't control the craters. Maybe my shop was too dusty. I'd love to brush it on, I don't mind a little extra sanding. Maybe next time I'll build a little clean room for doing it with a brush although I now have an overhead air cleaner which might help with that.
    Richard Hutchings

  3. #28

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Quote Originally Posted by peter.coombe View Post
    It is up to par. I use Target Coatings EM2000 which is an alkyd resin based (i.e. an oil varnish) in a water emulsion. It can be brushed or sprayed. I brush it on, but like all finishes it does require good brushing technique. As already stated, if your brushing technique is not good then practice until you get it right. See - http://petercoombe.com/publications/jaamim11.htm
    Peter thanks so much for that tutorial, I'll give it another try following your procedure.
    Richard Hutchings

  4. #29

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Here in the UK anyway it seems to me that water based paints for ordinary domestic use have come in in leaps and bounds in recent years. Just no comparison. The paint chemists have really made progress. So I suggest that any experience from a few years ago is of limited value. Mind you I have a mate who is now enthusing about UV cured finishes for luthiery...

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I built a canoe in college and brushed on marine varnish with a foam brush. ... mostly because I HATE cleaning brushes. I actually liked how thin I could lay on the varnish with it. I remember being concerned about the varnish "joint" where one brush stroke encounters the next but that was a non-issue.

    I'd love a basic step by step of the process like John Hamlet described if he or someone else doesn't mind sharing:... # of coats in each: spray shellac, varnish, etc?... any sanding or buffing?

    Also how do you account for a speed neck?... I remember Ken Ratcliff describing time me his process while he was building my Econo A as a different product and process for that. ... thanks in advance!
    aka: Spencer
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  6. #31
    Registered User Forestfloor1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Okay, here's before varnish, and after:

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    So, I had a piece of "scrap" wood laying around - and I've been trying out my 20's stain and varnish recipe. It's coming along well. Waterbase transtints, (various dilutions of amber, red mahogany, medium brown and walnut), shellac sealer, thinned sprayed Waterlox Marine, Tru Oil. Still putting on some Tru Oil, and will spirit varnish the top - IF the Tru Oil doesn't suffice (it might just be fine after the layers are on). Sure looks nice in the afternoon sun!
    Best,

    Jeff
    Forestfloor Mandolin Co.
    Insta: forestfloormandoco

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  8. #32
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Hey all, what's the consensus on grain filler?... do you guys feel it a necessity or no? I've been working through Graham's book and he recommends it particularly for woods like mahogany... what say you?
    aka: Spencer
    Silverangel Econo A #429
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    Soliver #001 Flattop Pancake style

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    "You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage
    to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it. -anonymous

  9. #33
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I like filler stained to highlight the wood, black filler with mahogany instruments. Gurian Guitars had a most wonderful gloss finish done that way, looked so deep you could stick your hand in it.

    As far as necessary, I think it’s required to fill the pores one way or another to prevent dimples. Ymmv
    Play it like you mean it

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  10. #34
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    That's looking great Jeff!

  11. #35
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Working on some test pieces and I notice how thick the Epifanes brushes on. Its lovely, but one coat on seems very thick... using a foam brush. A friend is going to loan me his HVLP sprayer to try. ... Is it 1:1 with the Epifanes to Lacquer thinner?
    aka: Spencer
    Silverangel Econo A #429
    Jacobson Nautilus Oval Hole Prototype
    Soliver #001 Flattop Pancake style

    Soliver Hand Crafted Mandolin Armrests
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    "You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage
    to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it. -anonymous

  12. #36
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Quote Originally Posted by soliver View Post
    ...Is it 1:1 with the Epifanes to Lacquer thinner?
    I don't know.
    It will depend on your spray equipment, your familiarity and skill level with the spray equipment, temperature conditions etc.
    When I spray varnish thinned with lacquer thinner, I simply add thinner until I get the viscosity I want to spray. For me, that can be a fairly wide range because I've sprayed so many different finishes over so many years with so many different spray set-ups that I just adapt to the characteristics of the material and equipment as I spray. That means I don't measure viscosity beyond watching to see how it runs and drips off of a stir stick. You'll just have to experiment.

    BTW, if you want to brush thinner coats of varnish you can try thinning the varnish with mineral spirits.
    (You can also spray varnish thinned with mineral spirits, but that will really test your spray gun skills as well as your cleanliness and "dust-freeness" of your spray area.)

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  14. #37
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Thanks SO much John... I so appreciate having such knowledge and experience so easily available!... LOVE the cafe!!!!
    aka: Spencer
    Silverangel Econo A #429
    Jacobson Nautilus Oval Hole Prototype
    Soliver #001 Flattop Pancake style

    Soliver Hand Crafted Mandolin Armrests
    Check them out here

    "You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage
    to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it. -anonymous

  15. #38

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Fast drying means less dust as John says, and fewer runs on vertical surfaces. Fast dry also means recoat and corrections are quick. Slow dry gives better flow, less chance of overspray textures. But as said, lots of variables. Something like cooking versus baking. A cook adapts on the fly, a baker hews close to quantitative, repeatable recipe. I also fail to measure and record those details, and change dilution, pressure by observation. This is not the best way to get consistency or to pass on technique. Shameful.

  16. #39
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Thanks Richard... I'm going to try to brush on with My test pieces with a mineral spirits and Epifanes mix.
    aka: Spencer
    Silverangel Econo A #429
    Jacobson Nautilus Oval Hole Prototype
    Soliver #001 Flattop Pancake style

    Soliver Hand Crafted Mandolin Armrests
    Check them out here

    "You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage
    to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it. -anonymous

  17. #40
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Lesson learned from mixing varnish with mineral spirits and brushing... it will brush on thinner indeed, but the lower viscosity makes it necessary for the surface to lay flat for a time to prevent runs, before it can be hung up to dry. Unfortunately, laying down longer lead to a little bit of dust infection (plus I probably should've protected it a little better). .... hopefully I have luck with the sprayer.
    aka: Spencer
    Silverangel Econo A #429
    Jacobson Nautilus Oval Hole Prototype
    Soliver #001 Flattop Pancake style

    Soliver Hand Crafted Mandolin Armrests
    Check them out here

    "You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage
    to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it. -anonymous

  18. #41

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Just going over past posts of those using Epifanes. I started using it a few months ago and I will never go back to anything else. I do have one question. I am using a 50/50 mix with mineral oil and it take about 4-8 coats to get a good build up. Is it necessary to sand or scuff between each coat?

  19. #42

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Sorry about that. I meant to say I am using a 1/3 1/3 1/3 mix of Epifanes, Tung oil, Mineral spirits.

  20. #43
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Istvan View Post
    ...I started using it [Epifanes] a few months ago and I will never go back to anything else. I do have one question. I am using a 50/50 mix with mineral oil and it take about 4-8 coats to get a good build up. Is it necessary to sand or scuff between each coat?
    That's an optimistic attitude! When the product leaves the market or the formula gets changed you will go forward (rather than back) to something else. That, at least, has been the case with nearly every finish I have learned to use.

    50/50 mineral oil? Not mineral spirits? I don't see how that can work.
    It is necessary to sand before any coat applied to a cured coat. In other words, we can apply 2 coats while the first is still "wet", but after it has cured for a day we need to sand.

    Edit:
    The second post wasn't there. Mineral spirits makes more sense.

  21. #44

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Thanks! I don't see much difference with or without adding the Tung Oil, but I was just trying what an old cabinet maker told me. What do you think?

  22. #45
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I'd leave out the tung oil. Old cabinet makers, furniture refinishes and so forth loved linseed oil and tung oil. There is plenty of oil already in the varnish, it is a "known quantity" as is. The Epifanes being discussed here is a spar varnish, and that generally means a long oil varnish, meaning it has a higher ratio of oil to resin (as opposed to a short oil varnish which has a lower ratio of oil to resin). The main reason for the long oil formula is more flexibility in the cured film making it more suitable for the rigors of exterior use on boats, spars and so forth. Instruments are not usually subjected to similar amounts of sun, wind, temperature shifts, salt spray and so forth, so they don't really need as much oil. In fact, I'd like to find a good short or medium oil varnish, preferably with phenolic resin (like the old rockhard).

  23. #46

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    OK, I'll leave out the Tung Oil and go back to the 50/50 mix of Varnish and Mineral Spirits. I really like the results, but it does take a long time to cure. Have you found anything better? I'm always up for trying something else.

  24. #47
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    I haven't found anything better for brushing. For spraying I reduce the varnish with lacquer thinner. You might be able to use less mineral spirits. You only need enough to get the results you want.

  25. #48

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I haven't found anything better for brushing. For spraying I reduce the varnish with lacquer thinner. You might be able to use less mineral spirits. You only need enough to get the results you want.
    OK, for brushing what mix would you use and would that mix change with recoats?

  26. #49
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Istvan View Post
    OK, for brushing what mix would you use and would that mix change with recoats?
    I don't know. I would practice on scrap, first with the undiluted varnish, then add small quantities (recording the amounts and proportions) until the material was brushing and flowing to my satisfaction. I'd use the same mix for all coats.

  27. #50

    Default Re: Waterlox Marine High Gloss

    OK, that's what I did and how I came up with the 50/50 mix, so I guess I'll keep using that ratio.
    Thanks for your input. That really helped.

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