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Thread: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

  1. #26
    Gypsy Mandola Gypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Explorer,
    I ordered those two books from Amazon.
    thank you for the recommendation.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    great discussion you cats

    another approach that may interest the original poster is to number the tones, and create a "formula" for the new scale as compared to a major scale
    I just looked at David's excellent response where he displays a D major scale and a Freygish starting on D. Looks like ( help me here everybody)..the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7, 1. What do you think? If that works, it might be a route to memorization...

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    great discussion you cats

    another approach that may interest the original poster is to number the tones, and create a "formula" for the new scale as compared to a major scale
    I just looked at David's excellent response where he displays a D major scale and a Freygish starting on D. Looks like ( help me here everybody)..the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7, 1. What do you think? If that works, it might be a route to memorization...
    Freygish would be:

    1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7.

    "the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7, "

    That's the formula for plain Phrygian mode, which gave the name to the Klezmer mode.

    The difference is the natural 3rd. This is the "Hava Nagila" scale - and as Hijaz is also used in Greek, Arabic, and Turkish music.

    That augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode.

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  6. #29
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Aha! Yes...
    In your earlier post the tones listed for Freygish included F natural. You did say start with a minor scale, so in this recent post when you say "natural 3rd" you mean the minor third? It still seems to me if you start with D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D (D major scale) then b2, b3, b6, b7 it yields D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D. But there it is in your last comment--the augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode. So on the previous post F should have been listed as F#?

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  8. #30
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Aha! Yes...
    In your earlier post the tones listed for Freygish included F natural. You did say start with a minor scale, so in this recent post when you say "natural 3rd" you mean the minor third? It still seems to me if you start with D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D (D major scale) then b2, b3, b6, b7 it yields D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D. But there it is in your last comment--the augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode. So on the previous post F should have been listed as F#?
    You may accidentally have my earlier posts confused with Alan's.

    His post:

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post

    Freygish D D# F G A A# C D

    Here's my original post with the corrected scale spelling:

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    The correct spelling of the scale is:

    D Eb F# G A Bb C D

    No, I always was referring to the natural major 3rd, the F# in this case. I hope this helps clear that up.

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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Thank you David!
    That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.

    What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Thank you David!
    That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.

    What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.
    That's all Ok, my friend.

    This is a deep subject...I'm still studying it.

  13. #33
    Gypsy Mandola Gypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Thank you Don.
    Yes, that is a good idea. If I wasnít so dyslexic lol 😂
    Iíll give it a shot. Iíve got a couple great books coming today by Benjamin M. Taylor.
    Iíll see what comes of that !
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  14. #34
    Gypsy Mandola Gypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Thank you sooo much everyone. I really appreciate all your time and effort to help me.
    i hope youíre all happy and well.
    Have a Wonderful Day 😊
    ď A Broken Heart can be a Painfully Beautiful thing for a Songwriter ď
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Thank you David!
    That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.

    What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.
    Those formulae work very well to describe various scales and modes, and make it easy to find a particular scale in any key. Plus they show clearly which notes vary from a basic major scale.

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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Explorer and Gypsy, I see the Benjamin Taylor books on Amazon ... but it appears that there are separate editions of the same title. The only difference seems to be the color of the covers and the ISBNs. Can you say if there is a difference between these? Thanks for your help.

  20. #38
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post

    What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.
    Adding my 2 cents here: it's helpful in a comparative since, especially when playing a wide range of these on an equally-tempered Western instrument (or the approximation of that on our fretted mandolins, mandolas, bouzoukis, etc.), but I think it's important to point out that in the vast majority of performing practices which utilize this system individual notes are different from one mode/makam/maqam to another. For instance, the note that we would call an Eb in Hijaz on D ("D Eb F# G A Bb C) is not the same pitch as the "Eb" in makam Husseini, etc., etc. Just in case you decide to try playing with some Greek, Arabic, Turkish, or other musicians who are not playing fretted instruments.

    For the Arabic perspective I can highly recommend maqamworld.com

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  22. #39
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    This fellow has many vids introducing the most common maqam https://youtu.be/eKZYlFrgub8
    Good basic intro - but read my response below please

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Adding my 2 cents here: it's helpful in a comparative since, especially when playing a wide range of these on an equally-tempered Western instrument (or the approximation of that on our fretted mandolins, mandolas, bouzoukis, etc.), but I think it's important to point out that in the vast majority of performing practices which utilize this system individual notes are different from one mode/makam/maqam to another. For instance, the note that we would call an Eb in Hijaz on D ("D Eb F# G A Bb C) is not the same pitch as the "Eb" in makam Husseini, etc., etc. Just in case you decide to try playing with some Greek, Arabic, Turkish, or other musicians who are not playing fretted instruments.

    For the Arabic perspective I can highly recommend maqamworld.com

    Enjoy!
    Maqam world is great!

    This is a great point - many of the genres of maqam-oriented music do not use the 12 tone equal tempered scale.

    Greek bouzouki, mandolin and lauto music use the regular 12T ET fixed metal frets like guitar and mandolin. Much Afghan music can be played in the same system, and a good deal of North african music can be played too, like the music for the mandol.

    The modern Greek dromo are related to the turkish makamlar, but were adapted to Western fretting and as such are a link to the Klezmer/Gypsy/Eastern European/Balkan musical systems that also use "normal" pitches.

    However, to really play Arabic and Turkish music (and Persian, but that's in the Dastgah system) you need instruments that are either fretless like the oud or have many moveable frets, like the tambur, saz, lavta, or buzuq.

    For example, we will notate in the Arabic system the note D and Eb, but that half-step could be very narrow, like as the b6 in Hejaz on G, G Ab B C D Eb. (but the G to Ab is wide as is the B to C)

    It's a bit less narrow in D Kurdi, D Eb F G A, and even wider in D Hejaz, D Eb F# G A.

    One Arabic scholar/player thinks he plays 13 different pitches between the lowest Eb and the highest E depending on the melodic passage and maqam.

    https://music.ucsb.edu/people/scott-marcus

    Dr. Marcus wrote a great paper on Maqam music.

    http://misrfone.net/wp-content/uploa...ern-Period.pdf

    https://books.google.com/books/about...d=G-4pnQEACAAJ

    Fretting on the neck of a Turkish lute:


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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    I think folks here may find it interesting to look at the thaat system of raga classification that can be found in North Indian classical music. This evolved in the 19th century as a way to classify and group different ragas into "families" of sorts, with these 10 thaats listed as the most popular or widespread. Thaats contain 7 notes, plus the octave, so they translate nicely as scales, from our western perspective. Obviously this is a huge area, but in terms of looking for an inspiring resource for exotic sounding scales that would sound good on a mandolin or mandola, I think these are worth exploring. 6 of them correspond to familiar western modes: Bilaval (major), Khamaj (mixolydian), Kafi (dorian), Asavari (natural minor), Bhairavi (phrygian), and Kalyan (lydian). Then there are: Todi (1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7,1), Purvi (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 1), Marva (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1) and Bhairav (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1).

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  26. #41
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by David Surette View Post
    I think folks here may find it interesting to look at the thaat system of raga classification that can be found in North Indian classical music. This evolved in the 19th century as a way to classify and group different ragas into "families" of sorts, with these 10 thaats listed as the most popular or widespread. Thaats contain 7 notes, plus the octave, so they translate nicely as scales, from our western perspective. Obviously this is a huge area, but in terms of looking for an inspiring resource for exotic sounding scales that would sound good on a mandolin or mandola, I think these are worth exploring. 6 of them correspond to familiar western modes: Bilaval (major), Khamaj (mixolydian), Kafi (dorian), Asavari (natural minor), Bhairavi (phrygian), and Kalyan (lydian). Then there are: Todi (1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7,1), Purvi (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 1), Marva (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1) and Bhairav (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1).
    This is another great system, but it is somewhat different than the makam traditions, although there are a number of similarities.

    The essential thing is to remember a raga is not just a scale or mode, but is a melodic shape and pattern.

    You can have 2 ragas with identical "scales" that are different - different notes of importance, melodic shapes, etc.

    Thanks for bringing this up.

    http://www.oart.eu/joomla/

    Afghan robab (rubab, rebab, etc.) is fretted in a more-or-less Western system that includes a version of the North Indian ragas.

    http://www.oart.eu/joomla/melody

    Some of the modes used.

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  28. #42

    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    @David -

    Ya Murat shows them all on ouds too (in other vids). Here he's just applying it to guitar...thought it more relevant for applying maqam on (equivalent tempered) mandola.

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  30. #43

    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bartl View Post
    Explorer and Gypsy, I see the Benjamin Taylor books on Amazon ... but it appears that there are separate editions of the same title. The only difference seems to be the color of the covers and the ISBNs. Can you say if there is a difference between these? Thanks for your help.
    The books are not in front of me, but I think the pink one has diagrams of the scales, covering the entire fretboard.

    The blue one is of chords, and since each diagram covers the entire fretboard, it can be used to learn those arpeggios in any position. In other words, it is of scales and of arpeggiated chords.

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  32. #44
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    @David -

    Ya Murat shows them all on ouds too (in other vids). Here he's just applying it to guitar...thought it more relevant for applying maqam on (equivalent tempered) mandola.
    You're right, of course. My error in not watching his other videos.

  33. #45

    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    I prbly should have posted this one instead - he says straight out what he's doing (approximating maqam on guitar).

    https://youtu.be/HNm1hfWOK_M
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-12-2020 at 1:37pm.

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  35. #46
    Gypsy Mandola Gypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

    Yes Joe , the pink one is scales and the blue one is chords. I ordered both and they are proving invaluable.
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