Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 84

Thread: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

  1. #51
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    2,865
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Well not even Gibson makes a correct A-5 mandolin like the Loar A-5, their A-5's are wrong if compared to the one and only! I talk to David Harvey a lot and have the utmost respect for him and what he's done for Gibson. He asked me who owns the original A-5 as he wants to make the A-5's like the original! I bet if he did they would be spot on, Gary's tributes are phenomenal and the closest to the real deal that I've seen. I see nothing wrong with paying homage to the originals! Like its been said above, this has been done for centuries in the violin world! So far his A-5 is the closest to the real deal from the photos I've seen as I've never been lucky enough to see or play the Griffith Loar A-5!

  2. #52
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    Lawrence, KS
    Posts
    2,319
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Loar copies, their existence, questions of who really did them, their merit or bane, etc. have been discussed on this forum since inception. There are hundreds of them. There never has been and never will be any kind of Forum posting guideline banning this discussion. Trying to sell one on this site: that's an entirely different issue, is clearly covered in the Classifieds guidelines and is illegal. The individual that owns the 2017 bench copy found out our policy on this when attempting to sell it here a few days ago. It was immediately removed.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mandolin Cafe For This Useful Post:


  4. #53
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,250
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    Not speaking for anyone else, but for me, this part of the definition renders the term (and therefore the characterization) inaccurate.
    Matter of opinion of course but your argument is with Merriam-Webster not me?
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  5. #54
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,250
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    Loar copies, their existence, questions of who really did them, their merit or bane, etc. have been discussed on this forum since inception. There are hundreds of them. There never has been and never will be any kind of Forum posting guideline banning this discussion. Trying to sell one on this site: that's an entirely different issue, is clearly covered in the Classifieds guidelines and is illegal. The individual that owns the 2017 bench copy found out our policy on this when attempting to sell it here a few days ago. It was immediately removed.
    So I can clearly see the logic in allowing intellectual discussions about the craftsmanship/quality of copy or tribute instrument versus permitting advertising of that same instrument for a commercial transaction which might be illegal.

    But IMO that highlights the problem with making tributes or bench copies (whatever they are to be called) of copyrighted instruments in the first place?

    Down the road in future no one will be able to keep track of which instruments are copies and which are authentic because not all sales of these instruments will be known and they will fade from view. That means that eventually copies will be sold on the MCC as well as other places and no one will be the wiser.

    That's why I say that they best not be made in the first place -- regardless of why it is done?

    Anyone think for a minute that Gibson Inc. would see the tribute aspect of these copies? I realize not everyone thinks warm and fuzzy thoughts about a big commercial company (and there may be legitimate reasons for such feelings) but that does not mean the company does not have legal rights?
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  6. #55
    Registered User testore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Turlock, California
    Posts
    1,801

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Thank you Scott. I think allowing these kinds of discussions actually increases our knowledge about these fine details. Expertise in the violin field has improved by huge leaps since the internet. There’s not a chance a good copy gets passed as a real deal amongst top dealers. There will always be those who try, and those who want to believe the unbelievable.
    I have the utmost respect and reverence for these old beauties. I find the modern approach to building instruments with CNC perfection sickening. They’re the most boring instruments ever built. Even a Stradivari, in all their perfection, is still at a human level. The teens and Loar era mandolins are full of wonderful nuisances that a computer controlled cutter obliterates. The more we talk about these details the better our collective knowledge grows. I’m not fearful of my work getting passed off as the original article. As with the A5, there’s only 1. The chance of another surfacing exists, but I think it’s extremely unlikely. As for my F copies, there’s just way too many of these tiny tiny nuisances that I miss. Collectively these nuisances add up to a large picture of a clear copy.
    At the end of the discussion on my F5 that Darryl did I encouraged others to make a copy and offer it up for discussion. The reason I did this wasn’t for my ego but for our collective improved knowledge.
    I certainly understand the legal issue. Simply put, there isn’t much of a defense. However, from an academic perspective these kinds of study pieces are essential for me to learn more about this craft. My non copies have improved too.
    Happy building!
    vesselmandolins.blogspot.com

  7. The following members say thank you to testore for this post:


  8. #56
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Orgiva, Spain
    Posts
    1,206

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Where would it place this copy if the The Gibson inlay was removed? I personally like the F holes put back 1/2" by shortening the body by the same amount. I just would not put the Gibson label on the headstock for legal and ethical reasons.
    Nic Gellie

    Collings 2017 MT2
    Ruben Bada 2019 Irish Bouzouki

  9. #57

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    We've had these tribute/forgery/counterfeit discussions here before. Many times. Basically, the builder has the best of intentions -- to test the limits of his skill, etc. A noble goal. It is the next owner/person in line who has the opportunity to take it in the wrong direction, if that is how their mind works....

    Like Gary says, everything is on the table.......just an academic exercise. I should add, very few people can do this level of work.

    However, in the vintage guitar world and when mega bucks are involved -- anything is possible. Now, some luthiers have enough skill to perfectly match and age vintage finishes, for example. That wasn't always the case. Most people could always tell a refinish -- now, not so much. When custom color guitars were bringing insane money, it was only a matter of time when a fake would surface. Again, the best of intentions -- a player just wanted his old sunburst Firebird refinished Cardinal Red, no biggee, right? That's right, it is all fun and games UNTIL he sells it, then if the refinish is accurate enough it gets sold as an original for 5 figures.....oops. A crime has been committed. Or maybe not, the buyer might not know for years or maybe never.....? There are techniques in refinishing that can fool a blacklight, for example. I know Gruhn guitars will not appraise a custom color Fender with any certainty for this reason. The wording will be purposefully vague, like "it appears to be" or "based on our experience" as a sort of disclaimer........not much assurance on a $50+ guitar!???

    Tons of Les Paul Standard copies out there, mostly bad, but SOME so good they have sold as originals. ALL have the original parts and case, those are available on eBay, for a price, so.....and OTOH, some are just used for "pride of ownership".....Slash's famous Les Paul is not a real Gibson, it is a boutique guitar, for example...(sounds pretty good to me, but what do I know?)

    I've seen Gibson acoustic necks grafted onto broke neck 335's and sold as original. Hey, same Gibson mahogany from the same factory from 60 years ago, only thing they came from two different guitars........well, again, depends on how your mind works......as an academic exercise it is great fun. Of course, as an illegal enterprise it is almost too much work. (although, I know vintage guitar dealers who hire luthiers for this purpose......then it sort of becomes a gray area, IMHO, since both parties are "in the know.")

    On a "small-time hood" level, I know people who put Gibson and Fender decals on cheapo copies so they can get a bigger "loan" at the local pawn shop. Easier to do before the internet made things easy to look up,,,,,,,but, in the days of the ol' "Blue Book" lookout, baby!

    That's not what Gary is doing here. He is showcasing his talents and willing to share. It is kind of like building a Model T in your garage just to see if you can do it. And, OF COURSE, you would put "FORD" on the radiator!

    I don't see why people don't get it. This is a "vintage" exercise. Not a counterfeit instrument operation, for Pete's sake!
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Jun-30-2020 at 1:19pm.

  10. #58
    Hands of Pot Metal
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    1,432

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Well, as stated by Gary in post 24, he builds them to sell them, because folks order them, not ‘collective improved understanding.’ He’s not restoring anything. Clearly there’s a commercial benefit to not using his own name.

    As noted, there’s potential legal peril.

    I don’t understand voluntarily going there.
    Play it like you mean it

    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Ratliff CountryBoy A
    00-21 (voiced by Eldon Stutzman)

  11. #59
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,199

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    If everyone did put "The Gibson" on their mandolins you could always tell the authentic ones because they would be the ones that didn't look right.

  12. #60
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Wouldn't an inked inscription on the inside of the back wood itself—clearly stating the builder's name and intention to create a tribute and not a forgery—go a long way to reduce ambiguity in the secondary marketplace down the road?

  13. #61
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    2,865
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    I'm a big time Gibson fan and have many very fine expensive vintage Gibson's-I have and had newer Gibson's also but they sure don't build them to the specs Gary uses, Gary has serious skill! I think Gibson should just employ Gary for the tributes! I'm not knocking Gibson at all as I love what David Harvey has accomplished but Gary's tributes are closer than any of the Gibson MM's in looks that I've seen. Gary has details down just like the Loars of old! I support Gary and Gibson and see nothing wrong with him paying homage to the great old Gibson's of the past. This has been done for centuries in the Violin world, and a few hundred years from now if humanity survives Gary will be even more well known for what he's done! That is just my opinion on the matter and when I can I will get one of his Griffith A-5 tributes!

  14. #62
    Registered User testore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Turlock, California
    Posts
    1,801

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    To Bill McCalls statement, yes of course I sell them. I do charge more as they are a ton more work and they always include some vintage hardware. Those things get expensive. Having Loar tailpiece covers made gets pricey too. Along with my violin building, studying details improves my work very rapidly. There is huge benefit to that.
    I agree with Will Smith at least in terms of what Dave Harvey has done at Gibson. With the exception of his attempts to age an instrument, I think the new Gibson’s under his tenure are better than the years before.
    If it’s any consolation, I’ve made almost 120 instruments, only 9 have been Loar copies. I can account for all of their whereabouts.
    I get more orders for Vessel mandolins than Loar copies.
    vesselmandolins.blogspot.com

  15. The following members say thank you to testore for this post:


  16. #63
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    It is a refreshing change to see this crowd getting so worked up over an A5 mandolin.

  17. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to j. condino For This Useful Post:


  18. #64
    Registered User testore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Turlock, California
    Posts
    1,801

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    That’s the best comment so far
    vesselmandolins.blogspot.com

  19. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to testore For This Useful Post:


  20. #65
    Mandolin & Mandola maker
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bega NSW, Australia
    Posts
    1,222

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    I don't see why people don't get it. This is a "vintage" exercise. Not a counterfeit instrument operation, for Pete's sake!
    The mandolin is beautifully made, and is as close to the Griffith Loar as any I have seen, so congratulations. Great, but if you sell it then there is likely to be a problem if Gibson finds out, so it is a risky endeavor that has the potential to ruin you, or at the very least cause a lot of stress. Gibson is now very aggressive about their trademarks and some I know who are on this forum have received the letter from Gibson. You also don't know what is likely to happen in the future. The owner is likely to sell it some time into the future and that in itself could be dodgy, depending on how he does it. We know he won't be selling it on this forum. Personally I think it is still an accurate copy if you put your name on the headstock and label, and that dramatically lowers the risk, and nobody here would get worked up about it!

    It is a refreshing change to see this crowd getting so worked up over an A5 mandolin.
    Ha ha ha, Yep.
    Peter Coombe - mandolins, mandolas and guitars
    http://www.petercoombe.com

  21. #66
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    St Paul, Minn
    Posts
    355

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Ok...where do you put the obvious indicators that it is a copy? Why the fake label with Loar's signature....for what reason is that? Yes, you are a craftsman and I respect that aspect and believe that particular instrument is stunning. But when you release it into the wild....you cannot play innocent. If your work is so good....why not put your own name on it? I don't care how many other well respected luthiers have done the same. I only have one word.....unethical. For every single one of them. And I
    would say that to their face. Just put your own name on it and call it a tribute on the label....jeez.

  22. The following members say thank you to ajh for this post:


  23. #67

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    I will no doubt "step in it" in 3..2...1...now. I haven't followed this thread closely and i'm not trying to judge anyone or anyone's comments. My gut reaction from glancing at a couple of comments is this..it's unbelievably difficult to reach the level of craftsmenship Mr. Vessel and others at the very top attain. All trademark conversation aside, I absolutely admire the work, quality, tone and art that someone like Gary has accomplished here. It is Awesome and i want it!! lol...
    ok, i basically have nothing to add so, back to my popcorn and thank you Gary. I don't know you but have always truly enjoyed your work from a distance.
    db

  24. The following members say thank you to Old Growth for this post:


  25. #68
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    I'd bet that there are a couple of areas where this mandolin exceeds the Griffith. I've played it, and while it is very cool, it is not perfect.

    Just like when you compare the scroll and binding work on many original Loar F5s- some of them are downright sloppy and rather crude. Gary and I would get laughed at if we tried to pass off that level of workmanship today.

    There is another pretty decent A5 copy that shows up here every summer for the local picking festivals, complete with the GIbson label and headstock inlay. I once saw a bunch of mando geeks all wide eyed and ooohh ahhh'ing it from afar. One of of their wives looks at the other and asked what all the excitement was. She turned and said, " I think that little guitar he is playing is a Stradivarious. #2 nodded and said it was too small; Strad never made ukuleles..."

    Maybe we should revive the old thread where everyone gets all mad at each other about the idea that the Griffith was opened up once by Givens and Tut to measure it back in the 1970s?????

    Gary: In a very and disturbing & dark year, thanks for the nice distraction and a cool mandolin.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to j. condino For This Useful Post:


  27. #69
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    2,865
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Actually wasn't there a thread about the imperfections of the Loar? I think that's what makes the originals so unique, like my Dec. 1st 1924 Loar the flowerpot is far down, a bit cocked and about touching the top of the TRC! Also mine like most that had a Virzi installed-they were already made then the back sawed off to install the Virzi and then the finish/varnish applied! Lot of extra time and work right there! Why not put the Virzi in first and save time and $? Strange I think but I believe Loar/Gibson pushed the Virzi option as Loar was an advocate of having them in his personal instruments. Was the Virzi a free option or did it cost extra? All very interesting.

  28. #70
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    40.1646° N, 74.2083° W
    Posts
    23,690

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    ...Maybe we should revive the old thread where everyone gets all mad at each other about the idea that the Griffith was opened up once by Givens and Tut to measure it back in the 1970s?????
    Was it? Let the games begin

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...l=1#post225451
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  29. The following members say thank you to MikeEdgerton for this post:


  30. #71
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,722

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    So I can clearly see the logic in allowing intellectual discussions about the craftsmanship/quality of copy or tribute instrument versus permitting advertising of that same instrument for a commercial transaction which might be illegal.

    But IMO that highlights the problem with making tributes or bench copies (whatever they are to be called) of copyrighted instruments in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    Loar copies, their existence, questions of who really did them, their merit or bane, etc. have been discussed on this forum since inception.
    While we are on here, we are all in discussion mode. We discuss wether a 50 USD pick will improve the sound of a 300 USD MK mandolin to the point that it sounds "great". We discuss and compare the sound of a mandolin with a Lloyd Loar F-5 (often without ever having playe one. We freely give advice in all kinds of matters. And that´s the fun of it. The 0.2 cents are just about worthless.

    It gets interesting when people weigh in that can provide expertise (not because they are called authorities). Many a topic has benefited from John McGann, Don Stiernberg, Pete Martin etc. when it came to musical questions, from Darryl Wolfe, Charlie Derrington, Big Joe West, Lynn Dudenbostel, Adrian Minarovic etc. when it came to Lloyd Loar mandolins and the list could go on.

    Unfortunately when legal questions arise, quite suddenly everybody is an expert. In the past that has lead to threads that lost their original focus and became quite sad to follow. I don´t want this thread to go in that direction. And in the past I have never seen that the very opinionated participants in the discussion have ever believed a legal expert. This is why I will not wast my time to break the legal argument down (as I had done in some previous thread - to no avail).

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    It is a refreshing change to see this crowd getting so worked up over an A5 mandolin.
    So thank you for bringing us back on track! Why? Everybody that rises the "forgery/counterfeit" issue concerning the only Lloyd Loar A-5 mandolin may as well raise the very same question when someone recreates Leonardo da Vinci´s Mona Lisa as a tribute.

    I still like to hear sound samples. The belitteling argument of small musical skills does not count in my book as they cannot be as brittle as some skills that are shown off in some "listen to me play" threads.

    I for my part like the idea of a tribute bench copy (f.ex. Frankie Monturo's D-18 and D-28 bench copies).
    Olaf

  31. #72
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    40.1646° N, 74.2083° W
    Posts
    23,690

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    For any new Cafe members that are unfamiliar with the Ms. Griffith Loar, the only Loar signed Gibson A5 this thread is a good place to start.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  32. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MikeEdgerton For This Useful Post:


  33. #73
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    40.1646° N, 74.2083° W
    Posts
    23,690

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    Well not even Gibson makes a correct A-5 mandolin like the Loar A-5...
    Charlie Derrington basically changed the design of the A5 to be an F5 without the scroll and points. I suspect I know why he did it and from a strictly manufacturing side of things it did make sense. Most human beings wouldn't see the difference. Darryl Wolfe pretty much nailed why the Ms. Griffith body was built like it was. I personally think it's a thing of beauty but that may be my affinity for what it is as much as anything else.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  34. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MikeEdgerton For This Useful Post:


  35. #74
    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    3,076

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Matter of opinion of course but your argument is with Merriam-Webster not me?
    It seems to me that you are making an argument of definition — that Gary has produced a “forgery” — only the definition that you introduced does not support your argument.
    1924 Gibson A Snakehead
    2005 National RM-1
    2007 Hester A5
    2009 Passernig A5
    2015 Black A2-z
    2010 Black GBOM
    2017 Poe Scout
    2011 Passernig F5
    2018 Vessel TM5

  36. #75
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    7,366

    Default Re: New Vessel Loar A5 tribute

    re: Flaws. It's like a Persian rug. It only has value because of the flaws. If the flaws were not there, it wouldn't be made by hand.

    I'd buy a tribute mandolin. I'd play it wherever I wanted. It'd be fun!

    I'm not in the spotlight; however.

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •