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Thread: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding mando?

  1. #1
    Registered User johnsoba's Avatar
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    Default What should I do with this interesting and great sounding mando?

    This mandolin was made by Mark Simon https://www.marksimonguitars.com/
    when he and John Monteleone were the repair shop at Mandolin Bros. It was his first and only. It sounds absolutely great BUT the neck joint keeps giving out. The last time I had it glued it only lasted 3 weeks (and my house is temp and humidity regulated). SO . . .
    1) Give up and sell as is?
    2) Fix right (I’m not sure what this would include. The back was taken off for this last regluing w/ fresh, hot hide glue) for how much about?
    3) Fix any way possible including pinning for how much about?
    4) Fix right and sell with full disclosure of neck joint history?
    5) Fix any way possible including pinning it and sell right and with full disclosure of neck joint history? For how much?
    6) Do I have other options?
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    Summit Artist V mandolin #384 (2011)
    R.L. Givens A5 mandolin #151 (1978)
    Jerman electric mandolin 4 string
    Pisgah custom banjo #888 (2017)
    Martin 000-18 guitar #218946 (1967)
    parlor guitar, ice cream cone heel, unlabeled
    Sebastien Kloz fiddle (1734, authenticated)

  2. #2
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Talk to Mark Simon?
    Not all the clams are at the beach

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I am not sure why the last repair person elected to open the back. We generally avoid opening mandolins [and guitars] unless there seems to be no other practical way to execute repairs.

    Ideally, I would hope that your last repairman guarantees his work, but . . . in this case, you might be better off consulting another repairman instead.

    As far as the cost of the repairs, I would not expect a competent repairman to give an estimate on this particular instrument without having the instrument in hand.

  4. #4
    Registered User johnsoba's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Thanks, folks. I've got a message in to Mark Simon, and I agree that no one will want to give an estimate without having it. I'm also just trying to figure out how much more money/time to put into it. My repairman does guarantee his work, but he's a friend of mine and I know he's stacked up, so I'm not going to mention it to him.

    Thanks again, and I will let you know what Mark Simon says. If he doesn't want to take a look at it, I guess I'll just re-post the pics and ask if anyone wants the job.

    Summit Artist V mandolin #384 (2011)
    R.L. Givens A5 mandolin #151 (1978)
    Jerman electric mandolin 4 string
    Pisgah custom banjo #888 (2017)
    Martin 000-18 guitar #218946 (1967)
    parlor guitar, ice cream cone heel, unlabeled
    Sebastien Kloz fiddle (1734, authenticated)

  5. #5
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    That's often the case when you buy someone's first instrument- you just paid for their learning lessons, not for their knowledge of long term methods and a solid warranty.

    I believe John worked for Mandolin Brothers back in the late 1970s / early '80s, so it has held together for quite a while. Generally, associating a well established builder like John Monteleone with someone who worked in the same shop 40 years ago and only made one instrument is a bit of a leap....

    Brazilian rosewood back, sides, and neck? Nice, one of my favorite combinations!!!!!

    3 weeks is not a repair- that is a band aid that failed. You should get a refund and take it to someone who knows how to do the work properly- and expect a hefty dumba$$ tax for expecting them to cleanup someone else's mess.
    www.condino.com

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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Whoever took the back off did you no favors. It has moved and does not match the sides any more. It will take a complex jig and clamping system to get it back right.
    So, the neck join has been looked at by repair people. How was it done? Why is it failing? No way anyone can know how to fix it without this information, but someone can probably rebuild that joint so that it works.
    Bill
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Get it fixed and play the snot out of it.

  8. #8
    Teacher, repair person
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I like that answer.

    Find the most seasoned repairman you can to do the work. This is a job for an expert.

  9. #9
    Registered User Stephen Cagle's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I'd let Jonathan McClanahan take a look at it. If you've not heard of him just Google him. He would be my pick. He would shoot straight forward with you and tell you what it needs and he certainly could do it. Danny Roberts (former Gibson builder) has now teamed up with him. Definitely worth a phone call.
    www.mcclanahanstringedinstruments.com
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  10. #10
    Registered User johnsoba's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I haven't heard from Mark Simon yet. If I don't, I'll get hold of some of the names I'm seeing here. Is that the way to find somebody: Just ask for people's rec's?
    It really is an unusual mando: as j. condino notes, Brazilian back, sides, and neck; wide, flat fretboard, slightly wider and thinner than most F5's I've had in hand.

    Stephen, I'll call McClanahan if Mark Simon doesn't respond. My brother lives in Mt. Juliet and could be my liaison.

    Any other names I should be aware of?

    Summit Artist V mandolin #384 (2011)
    R.L. Givens A5 mandolin #151 (1978)
    Jerman electric mandolin 4 string
    Pisgah custom banjo #888 (2017)
    Martin 000-18 guitar #218946 (1967)
    parlor guitar, ice cream cone heel, unlabeled
    Sebastien Kloz fiddle (1734, authenticated)

  11. #11
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I like the double flower pot! Unless you are planning to keep it for yourself, I'm afraid the economics would probably exceed what you'd hope to recover. This repair to fix the neck and take care of aesthetic issues would not be a small job. If you don't plan to keep it for yourself then you could sell it as a project mandolin. There are budding repair luthier hobbyist who would consider it for the challenge. I am also puzzled as to why the back would have been removed to repair the neck joint. I guess it's not clear what type of neck joint is present? Good luck with your decision and do keep us posted.
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

  12. #12
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Private message responded to.

    My guess it the back was removed because the neck joint is the early Siminoff mortise & tennon + dowel style that makes it a pain in the @$$ to remove or do repairs on, especially if the dowels were forced in too tight. Many times you have to drill those out.

    'Apologies if I sounded harsh in my earlier post. As someone who does a ton of repairs and restoration work, it work should be solid and on the rare occasions where glue or humidity or other unplanned failures occur, they should be covered for a reasonable time period. I've met very few people who intentionally do questionable work; most of the time they get in over their head. Just because you understand the methods and limitations of one particular joint doesn't mean that you understand them all. That was one of the greatest challenges when I worked for Dream Guitars- on any given day you had to have a very good knowledge of hundreds and hundreds of different builders and methods from all over the world spanning the last 150 years of very expensive, very fragile instruments.

    If that combination of Brazilian over red spruce works as well as others I've played and built, it is worth the effort to restore it properly, even if it costs more than you expected. Ask around and see how much it would cost to have a similar mandolin built today!
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Let's put it this way-- a single block of rosewood thick enough to carve just a mandolin back will cost a builder big bucks, if he can find one at all. In addition, he will need several strips for the sides. If a neck is also to be made of rosewood, that's another chunk.

    Thin Brazilian rosewood for flat top instrument backs and sides can be found. Thick chunks for carved backs and necks are not easily found.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Unfortunately it looks like you might need a new neck block and rebuild whatever is there. If it is a Siminoff mortice, I've had luck converting them to bolt-on, but it's a mess to get out. It is always more difficult to fix what someone else already tried to fix.
    It looks like a nice mando. It can be repaired and made stable, although the damage done by the last person who removed the back is sad and will need some attention.

    As for the BRW:Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #15
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    I and almost every other professional builder I know have plenty of Brazilian rosewood in large enough sizes to build a mandolin and have sources where they can obtain more. Once you get below the common guitar sizes, the price is manageable. The dominant driver in rosewood prices is the guitar market. Its a mandolin, not a double bass....I also build those and that is a completely different conversation in regards to material costs....
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    www.condino.com

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  17. #16
    Registered User johnsoba's Avatar
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    Default Re: What should I do with this interesting and great sounding man

    Are those your work j. condino? Beautiful!

    I also like your idea above of why the back was removed: mortise and tenon joint. Thanks for the excellent info.

    P.S. Just found your Facebook page and spent some time luxuriating in the pics. So cool.
    Last edited by johnsoba; Jun-11-2020 at 1:59pm.

    Summit Artist V mandolin #384 (2011)
    R.L. Givens A5 mandolin #151 (1978)
    Jerman electric mandolin 4 string
    Pisgah custom banjo #888 (2017)
    Martin 000-18 guitar #218946 (1967)
    parlor guitar, ice cream cone heel, unlabeled
    Sebastien Kloz fiddle (1734, authenticated)

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