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Thread: "Playing the circle of fifths"

  1. #76
    Hands of Pot Metal
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    A semi-interesting tie...Meet The Flintstones is a rhythm changes contrafact, and the B part is a straight circle of 4ths progression.
    And played awesomely by the George Barnes Quartet.
    Play it like you mean it

    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Ratliff CountryBoy A
    00-21 (voiced by Eldon Stutzman)

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  3. #77
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I think it depends on what you call "folk music", Joel.
    I was using "folk" to describe any contemporary or roots music playable on mandolins/guitars etc.
    Some people in this music improvise off guide tones using approach notes, but its not something
    I generally hear. Maybe compared to Jazz where you hear it a lot. Doesn't mean it has to sound
    like Jazz though. Jerry Garcia's voice leading [starting at 0:58 here] is an interesting example
    of moving through chord changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9KvrpEmU2c
    Nice playing of chord tones & worth some analysis. He goes to the 3rd a lot. Pretty rare for a
    "rock" player. This too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sb0FGRCQhA

  4. #78
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post

    I'd suggest that a composer who used "music theory" as a generating tool would end up writing inhuman, unemotional crap. Something like European technopop. But not music that would make me want to grab my instrument and play along.
    But no one does, so what's your point? Roughly, theory is a sytematized collection of devices and concepts serving to unify and connect a multitude of special instances, and aiding one's orientation in the musical landscape. Even such a straightforward activity as memorizing a song is greatly facilitated by theoretical concepts, starting, e.g., with the key and harmonic structure (as I've said before: the key to memorization is understanding).

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  6. #79
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    But no one does, so what's your point? .
    My point, sir, was to respond to what is implied by this statement two pages above: "If you have to guess about writing an effective sentence, then you can't consistently express yourself well. Music is the same thing." What's implied in this statement is that grammar is necessary to compose an "effective sentence." If you extend the analogy to where it was clearly intended, then you would need music theory to create whatever "effective music" would be. (That must be the implication. If the subject of the sentence was descriptive grammar rather than prescriptive, then the sentence would mean something like "I describe what I like therefore since I can describe it I like it.")

    My point was precisely stated. I believe this is not true. Grammar or music theory might train your ear or whatever creative organ you use. Grammar or music theory might provide an analytical framework to understand why some things work and other things don't. And grammar or music theory might serve as a kind of mnemonic to remember what the likely patterns are. But to argue that either is necessary to create art is--I believe--incorrect. If it were true then we would not have Appalachian folk music or Delta blues--are created by people who used an intuitive grasp of pleasurable sound rather than "playing the circle of 5ths" to create music. If it were true then Big Blue would be producing "music" not a series of sounds.

    That was my point, sir.
    belbein

    The bad news is that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. The good news is that what kills us makes it no longer our problem

  7. #80

    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Alphabetic language is predicated on symbolism; music typically is not. To communicate effectively in alphabetic language, one must necessarily understand the system (of symbolism, form, etc); music not so much, as it is a different cognitive function (than language). A fundamental difference prohibiting direct analogous comparison.

    Theory is simply a mathematical model of "music"/sound relationships. Some folks do fine without the mathematical conception.

  8. #81
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Alphabetic language is predicated on symbolism.
    Sorry, not true. There's no symbol involved, other than the sense of "signifiers" (grossly "words") "symbolizing" "signifieds (grossly, "things" and ideas). Semiotically, there's no difference in their essence of either "alphabetic" language or hieroglyphics or ideograms or for that matter quipas or computer icons: they're all "signifiers" and they all serve the same function in language. The "signifieds" are also serving the same function in all those cases, and the relationships between signifiers and signifieds is the same in all cases. The apparent differences that you point out are not real differences in character: they're accidents.

    Music, too, is a semantic system. The written notes in stands notation--and the tab or shape note notation or whatever: all signifiers. It's the SIGNIFIEDS that are fascinating in music. Because the sound the notated notes represent are certainly signifieds. But the way music really "signifies" is through strings of those sounds ... and what's signified by those strings of sounds bypass words altogether. .

    Since humans are word-dwelling creatures, music's non-word-based communication of meaning is always an ineluctable mystery to us, and that's what attracts us. The circle of 5ths can't generate this meaning or mystery-- any more than a quipa can generate a "thing"-- but it can DESCRIBE it. And that, once again, was my point.

  9. #82

    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    I like my meta view better..it's all symbolic, except when they're not Sure you can parse it more.

  10. #83
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Music theory describes what we do. It does not force us to do it.
    Phil

    “Sharps/Flats” “Accidentals”

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  12. #84

    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    And remember that our theoretical systems (western tradition) are but one of many - approaches to describe and order sound relationships. We find it preeminent, because our model of the world is preeminently mathematical.

    Obviously people execute effective "music" without the mathematical conception, and music is an aesthetic perception. Yet sound itself exceeds our still uncertain models.

  13. #85
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Catmandu: unusually, I wasn't talking out of my hat. The scientific field of study is called"semiotics." You can't talk about language without it. To do so would be like talking about "bodily humors" when you're talking medicine or "the ether" when talking physics or alchemy when in the realm of chemistry. I wasn't giving you metaphor, I was talking basic principles of the science of semiotics.
    belbein

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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    YES! My point. It's descriptive not prescriptive, and certainly not generative.
    belbein

    The bad news is that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. The good news is that what kills us makes it no longer our problem

  15. #87
    Registered User mmuussiiccaall's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    The visuals can be a useful tool to help us understand the audibles. Here's chromatic circles showing the modes.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...2/2c/Modes.svg

  16. #88
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Glassman View Post
    I was using "folk" to describe any contemporary or roots music playable on mandolins/guitars etc.
    Some people in this music improvise off guide tones using approach notes, but its not something
    I generally hear. Maybe compared to Jazz where you hear it a lot. Doesn't mean it has to sound
    like Jazz though. Jerry Garcia's voice leading [starting at 0:58 here] is an interesting example
    of moving through chord changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9KvrpEmU2c
    Nice playing of chord tones & worth some analysis. He goes to the 3rd a lot. Pretty rare for a
    "rock" player. This too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sb0FGRCQhA
    As for the theoretical analysis it’s downright silly to give the solo in tab only. The chords are given in notation,to be sure, but if the C#7 is to be considered the dom of f#m, as the analysis suggests, then the f note is plain wrong. The basic rule is: you don’t notate different scale notes on the same line or space, hence the f should be an e#.

    This talk of multiple key changes within a few bars is somewhat arbitrary. To my ears the whole piece is firmly rooted in the key of A all the way.

    According to the analysis the D chord followed by d#dim “tricks” the ear into to expecting an E7. Really? I expect an A/e, to be followed by E7 (6-4 preparation)
    or f#m (diatonic scale movement) or C#/7/e#, f#m (chromatic scale movement). The E7 between f#m and D, d#dim is a bit quirky, but doesn’t upset the tonality.


    If I were to improvise on this song I would clean up the chord sequence to make it more fluid and logical.

  17. #89

    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by rfloyd View Post
    Something about this thread leads me to post this who-knows-if-anybody-ever-said-it quote:

    A leading Nashville session player, when asked if he could read music, said - "Yeah, but not enough to hurt my playin'"

    Now that's funny, I don't care who ya are....
    This has also been attributed to Louie Prima. Regardless of the source it's still funny.

  18. #90
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    A while back I mentioned that I found a particular visual presentation of complex theory beyond my comprehension. I also mentioned that I am a sucker for excellent graphic presentations of complex information. Here's a great example that I just stumbled upon: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/his...ics-deadliest/

    No political motivation intended. I don't know which party or which side of any debate this site supports. I can't vouch for the truth or accuracy of any of the information presented. But I can say that the graphic representations are absolutely spectacular.
    belbein

    The bad news is that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. The good news is that what kills us makes it no longer our problem

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