Can builders reproduce a tonal profile?

[Brandon Flynn]

I'm considering going for a custom instrument of a respected professional builder, and I am wondering to what extent a professional builder can feel confident that they can reproduce the sound of one of their prior instruments?

I know there are lots of little variations they can't control, but I'm curious if a highly skilled professional builder would feel confident of getting in the ball-park if I said "can you built it to sound a lot like this other one you built?"

I guess a related question would be: for top-tier builders, are most of these builders intentionally developing instruments with different voicings, or how often is the variance within these voicings down to things they can't control?

Opinions from builders would be particularly welcome!

[ProfChris]

I'm a bottom tier, amateur ukulele maker, and all my builds sound quite like each other (and not like those from other builders).

So I think a top tier maker should be able to get very close indeed.

[HoGo]

All depends on what is your measure of close enough reproduction... I would answer NO. You can get close if you have good notes about materials and exact specs of the build and chances are high especially if you have wood from the same tree (not just same supplier or country).

[Bill McCall]

Red Diamond has a model “July 9, 1923” voicing, so apparently at least one maker thinks he can meet the challenge.

[Marty Jacobson]

As another anecdote, I've been told all my mandolins have a common family resemblance. This is after the player played five instruments on the same day with very different tonewoods (redwood over wenge, sitka over bigleaf, cedar over birdseye, etc.)

There's voicing, tonewood, and all that. But the biggest contributor to tone is the design of the instrument. A dreadnought is going to sound like a dreadnought, no matter what you make it out of, or how much care you put into it.

So to Hogo's point, how strict are we being here? What controls or metrics are being used to determine similarity?

[Brandon Flynn]

As another anecdote, I've been told all my mandolins have a common family resemblance. This is after the player played five instruments on the same day with very different tonewoods (redwood over wenge, sitka over bigleaf, cedar over birdseye, etc.)

There's voicing, tonewood, and all that. But the biggest contributor to tone is the design of the instrument. A dreadnought is going to sound like a dreadnought, no matter what you make it out of, or how much care you put into it.

So to Hogo's point, how strict are we being here? What controls or metrics are being used to determine similarity?

There's the rub, it's all so subjective and this kind of thing is almost impossible to define, so I guess the question just might not have a viable answer; the only control or metric is my impossible to define idea of "similar". In general what I'm think I'm trying to learn is to how much control builders feel they have over altering the tone of their instruments, and whether they are altering how they build various instruments to produce different results within the same design. Obviously the biggest differences will be between two completely different designs, like an f versus oval hole instrument, but I'm curious if any builders feel they are developing different voicings with some predictability within the same design.

[Skip Kelley]

I feel most of my mandolins have a very close sound in tone. Is that what you are referring to?

[sunburst]

I have notes about materials, plate weights, arch heights and so forth. I have reasonably large stocks of wood from some supplier and from trees that I processed myself. If someone wanted a sound similar to mandolin #whatever, I could check my notes, see what spruce and what maple I used, and if I have more of that material, and if I recorded my arch heights and plate weights, I would feel confident that I could get a similar sound by making a similar instrument.
I have also made instruments from wood that I no longer have. I would be less confident in being able to approximate that sound.
I (and others) do detect a "family resemblance" among my mandolins, as other builders have mentioned, so even with unfamiliar materials I would not expect drastic sound differences.

[Brandon Flynn]

I have notes about materials, plate weights, arch heights and so forth. I have reasonably large stocks of wood from some supplier and from trees that I processed myself. If someone wanted a sound similar to mandolin #whatever, I could check my notes, see what spruce and what maple I used, and if I have more of that material, and if I recorded my arch heights and plate weights, I would feel confident that I could get a similar sound by making a similar instrument.
I have also made instruments from wood that I no longer have. I would be less confident in being able to approximate that sound.
I (and others) do detect a "family resemblance" among my mandolins, as other builders have mentioned, so even with unfamiliar materials I would not expect drastic sound differences.

Thanks John, that's helpful. It may be something that different builders may differ on, which in itself would be instructive. Your answer helps me see what kind of factors would be in play.

[urobouros]

I’ll echo the family resemblance theory with guitars for sure! A Santa Cruz won’t sound like a Martin but it’ll definitely sound like a Santa Cruz. It may be subtle but each builder will have their own sound. It’ll vary by size but I think you can hear it. In my ever so humble opinion, of course

[dschonbrun]

The simple answer is yes.

Nowadays, luthiers will select wood not just by beauty, but by density (physical, and grain).

When the top and backplates are carved, luthiers may "tap tune" them and make minor adjustments to the tonebars to get just the right harmonic signature. Often times, makers will do micrometer measurements of thickness at multiple points on the plates to be exact and consistent in their instruments. I know that Kisuke at Northfield does highly sensitive acoustic resonance testing on the plates prior to assembly.

Once assembled, but before finishing, the instruments are strung up, tuned,and given time to adjust to the stress. The instrument is tested, and if it doesn't meet the luthier's expectations, then further work may be done (including opening the back).

This kind of attention to detail really helps to develop a consistent sonic presence from their instruments.

I find Tom Ellis delivers incredibly consistent instruments at the top of his range. Collings MF-5's are well known for their consistency. I have also found the Northfield's Artists being made with Mike Marshall have a unique and consistent signature .

Best,
D

[Mike Romkey]

I have a Red Diamond July 9. Does it sound like its namesake Loar? I dunno! I’ve never played one. But it’s a great sounding mandolin.

[William Smith]

There are many fine builders these days, many builders can emulate their specific tones, oliver apitius has his voicing and a new ls voicing-lloyd loar style tone/vibe. Johns mandolins "sunburst-above" sure can build and i played two of his at the recent banjothon/loarfest and i liked his a-5 style better than his f-5 he was showing off-even my uncle gene johnson was very impressed with the a model-he commented on it later to me as we were having lunch! We were talking about all the great builders today and there are way too many of you guys that have it going on, johnathan mcclannahan has some great builds and are very consistant as is collings and ellis as those are consistant more thanlikely due to being made mostly by cnc machines? David harvey signed gibson's i think are the best gibson's that have ever been made since the 20's-30's!

[Jim Garber]

A few months ago I acquired a Campanella mandolin. A local friend also has one. I went to see him and we compared and they sounded very close to each other and if we had the same strings might be identical in tone and playability. I also last year played a few Collings mandolins. One was an A and one a higher end F. There was a definite difference in tone but they both sounded like Collings. I liked both of them and a friend owns the A now.

What impresses me are makers who have different intentional voicings in their instrument line. Rolfe Gerhardt/Phoenix made mandolins that all looked similar but each was meant to have a different sound. I believe that Marty Jacobson has achieved those voicings as well. And, of course, Don MacRostie/Red Diamond.