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Thread: I Hate Playing Chords

  1. #51
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    The mandolin is an ocean, with infinite pathways traversing its surface. You don't need to learn them all. You only need to learn how to get to where you want to get to, and how to get either back home or on to some other place from there.

    Two dirty little secrets that musicians rarely admit:

    No matter how accomplished, nobody knows all the paths across this ocean. Even the mighty Thile has his collection of comfortable paths and destinations, which no matter how many he knows, is only a small fraction of what there is to know. Sure he is above me. But he is not really that much closer to the moon than I am. And we both are just doing what we can, what we know.

    And secondly, everyone is only playing the tunes they know. No matter what, there is an infinity of tunes they don't know. Nobody, really, is playing the mandolin, they are, all of them, like me, playing things they know on the mandolin.
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  3. #52

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    I really appreciate this thread, not because I dislike chording but because I love it maybe a little too much. I just started mandolin as my first stringed instrument about five months ago, partly because I wanted a way to provide backing for vocals and harmonica when my band wasn’t around to jam with. So I just learned some chords and started playing a few songs I already knew, which was a fun and easy way to start. I’m up to about twenty songs that are suitable for playing for friends at the brewery. I appreciate the information on this thread which has provided me some great insights on alternate fingerings for chords, and helping me transition to closed chords. My next quest is how to get my brain to switch from chording as a main vocal accompaniment to chording as a rhythm backing, and also how to switch between chords and melody picking and back again in the middle of a song. For instance on Alan Jackson’s Remember When, I can do the intro and then switch to chords and vocals through the rest of the song, but there are some great little picking breaks after the intro and I struggle to jump into them and normally just chord all the way through the rest of the song.

  4. #53

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    ...everyone is only playing the tunes they know. No matter what, there is an infinity of tunes they don't know. Nobody, really, is playing the mandolin, they are, all of them, like me, playing things they know on the mandolin.
    No offense intended, but I think you're drastically reducing the realm of music and totally missing on essential factors - by boiling it all down to "a bunch of tunes"..

    An artist is vastly more than this, as is the quality, value, and meaning of his/her work. What Thile "knows" (if this terminology has any utility) is a different universe than where most of us dwell, and probably is closer to the celestial bodies.

  5. #54
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Sherry -- Something to realize, in case you don't know it already: three- and four-finger chords have the virtue that these forms can be shifted around on the neck of the mandolin. Once you learn one basic hand shape, you can move it to other positions on the neck to get different named chords. Two-finger chords, in contrast, have to rely on some open string to get the third note of the chord, and there are only four possible open notes: G,D,A,E. If one of those four notes isn't a chord tone, then it will not be possible to play a two-fingered version of it. And if you just play two fretted notes at the same time, you are -- by definition! -- playing a double-stop, and not a chord.

    In other words, three- and four-finger chords are versatile and "universal" on the mandolin. but two-finger chords are rigidly idiosyncratic.

    Put in the work, I'd urge you. Learn to play three- and four-finger chord shapes and move amongst them: your playing technique will benefit, and your music should improve.

    If you play music with others, the chances are good (in most musical genres, anyway; there are some exceptions) that you will spend a lot more time playing chords than playing lead.

  6. #55
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    I’d learn G chords:
    455x for G
    523x for C or 023x
    745 for D or 245x
    022x for Em or 457x

    But play for fun. Learn lots of melodies, there’s plenty of tunes to enjoy in all genres.

    Horn players don’t play chords, so be easy on yourself.
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    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Thanks to The Og for bringing this thread back to life. I had forgotten I had even started it and just started a new thread in the Newbies group, asking how others successfully transitioned from 2 to 3 finger chords. I see there are lots of suggestions here and I intend to try them all. I figure most of my problem is in my head, not in my hands.

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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Hi Sherry. Just a few thoughts regarding chords. I played guitar (and sang) in a bluegrass groups / jams before playing mandolin about 20 some years ago. I still play guitar but not as my main instrument. The guitar was / is primarily a rhythm in instrument in that ensemble setting. I feel that the mandolin should also be approached as not just a lead instrument but also a compliment to others you are playing with. If you are playing only your part I feel you are missing the chance to contribute more to to the total sound. Learning full chords will greatly enhance your ability to play rhythm and rhythm is the basic building block that all music starts with. Approaching the mandolin as only a lead instrument leaves a lot of musical possibilities unexplored. It's well worth the time to expand your horizons by learning full chords.

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  11. #58
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    I love playing chords and I love chopin', that's why they keep me around at jams

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  13. #59
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Wilson View Post
    I love playing chords and I love chopin', that's why they keep me around at jams
    I agree 1000%. Knowledge of some chords and chord progressions is essential to playing with others if you are playing traditional-based music. Some violin players can get along sort of OK without knowing all that. The ones who only know how to play melody and fills and who play it consistently on top of the singers and other lead players (mostly classical violinists, in my experience) find themselves in less demand over time. Ninety percent of the mandolin's job is as a rhythm instrument, so chords, strumming, and chops are integral parts of playing it. Folks want to hear the lead played by the mandolin. Maybe that takes the most practice, but I suggest it remains secondary to the rhythm practice. Being familiar with the various chord forms will make melody and lead playing easier in due time. To me, this may dictate getting some lessons from a music teacher who is also a good mandolin player.
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry Cadenhead View Post
    I figure most of my problem is in my head, not in my hands.
    Some wise person said, "Free your mind; the rest will follow." I figure it will help if you find some chords that sound good to you, and are easy to play. Playing them, listening to them, should inspire you to play more - increasing your enjoyment level, as it were.

    For me, the ones that do this for me are the abovementioned D 2002 and G 0023. Playing them will nearly always bring me out of whatever gloom I may be in. Minor chords that also work, filling me with feeling, are Em7 4253 and Am 2235. That first one may look daunting, but it's a really comfortable fit. And what a sound! Slightly more exotic chords like G6 0020 and Cma7 5223 are also beautiful to my ears.

    All I'm saying is, offset your general dislike of playing chords with chords that you like playing, like to hear, and you should get past this obstacle, and sooner than you'd think. Find what works for you and work it.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  15. #61
    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Update from original April 2020 post:

    I've been playing 2 finger chords again for a few months now. I can switch easily and enjoy playing them. I do have a local mandolin teacher I manage to see about once a month. He's been working with me on 3 finger chords, but really wants me to master that dreaded barre A. Anyway, when I practice, I start out with 3 fingers, only to revert back to 2 fingers out of frustration. I practice with a metronome or play along with YouTube videos, sometimes downloaded to Transcribe! where I can change the key. If I'm playing 2 finger chords, my rhythm is good. My regular (classical violin) teacher has beat into me the importance of always maintaining the beat.

    Based on suggestions that have been made in the Forum and Newbies group, I've set up a notebook with tunes from Dix Bruce's Parking Lot Picker's Song Book. I've chosen G major and only songs with 3 chords. A couple of people have said they like that 2 finger G, which I've played for sometime. I plan to combine it with the 3 finger C nearby, shifting to D (although I love the 7 chords, so I'll need to figure out how to make D7 at that location (which I think Mark Gunter has given me somewhere. (I've always played 2032.))) I'm starting this strategy today.

    I appreciate all the comments.

    Sherry

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Aha. Reading this, I realize I may have been putting too much emphasis on the title of this thread and its implications. I'm sorry if I've been off topic as a result. (There's probably some useful information in my posts, anyway. )

    So I'll just add this. There's another D7 chord in that area, if 2032 gives you problems. It's 2435. I will grant it doesn't have a D note, but it fulfills the function otherwise. It may be easier to play for you; everyone's different.

    There's also another A chord, which your teacher may not like, because of its open strings. That's 6200. It's a bit odd, but it has all the notes, and it pairs well with D 2002.

    Alrighty then! Keep at it.
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  18. #63
    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Aha. Reading this, I realize I may have been putting too much emphasis on the title of this thread and its implications. I'm sorry if I've been off topic as a result. (There's probably some useful information in my posts, anyway. )

    So I'll just add this. There's another D7 chord in that area, if 2032 gives you problems. It's 2435. I will grant it doesn't have a D note, but it fulfills the function otherwise. It may be easier to play for you; everyone's different.

    There's also another A chord, which your teacher may not like, because of its open strings. That's 6200. It's a bit odd, but it has all the notes, and it pairs well with D 2002.

    Alrighty then! Keep at it.
    No apology necessary! You have made some valuable comments, and I always like encouragement to play a 2 finger chord!

    2032 doesn't give me problems at all. I just figure there's a better fit when playing in the movable D area.

  19. #64
    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry Cadenhead View Post
    No apology necessary! You have made some valuable comments, and I always like encouragement to play a 2 finger chord!

    2032 doesn't give me problems at all. I just figure there's a better fit when playing in the movable D area.
    Sometimes I post before I think things through! That 2032 D7 works great with 0023 (or (x)523) and 523(x).

  20. #65

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    For D7 good ol’ 545x is not a huge move off the C chord and you can always do a diagonal 7th chord, in this case for D7 it’s 5432 or just use 3 of the notes...the mando generally doesn’t have to be concerned with the root note you get to decide what you like the sound of best.
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  22. #66
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by bigskygirl View Post
    For D7 good ol’ 545x is not a huge move off the C chord and you can always do a diagonal 7th chord, in this case for D7 it’s 5432 or just use 3 of the notes...the mando generally doesn’t have to be concerned with the root note you get to decide what you like the sound of best.
    Im with bigskygirl: For D to D7, 7-4-5-x to 5-4-5-x is usually my choice. Use that all the time. The note at fret 7 is the root (D) and when you lower it a full step you get the flatted 7 (C note). Both chords leave out the 5th. That D chord plays 1st-3rd-8v (8v = octave, or root) and the D7 plays b7-3rd-8v

    The diagonal 7th chord bigskygirl mentions, 5-4-3-2, also omits the 5th. It could be spelled b7-3rd-b7-3rd and that of course is moveable all over the neck to change the chord name. The D7 iteration being discussed can be altered by playing a two-finger variation at 5-0-0-2! That is to me a beautiful open chord but I use it judiciously, where an open ringing chord is called for. It spells b7-1st-5th-3rd
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    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Sherry, that all looks like excellent planning and progress. As somebody indicated, don't work at it too hard. Keep it enjoyable, but do play one of those new chord forms at least once every day. The difficulty will be gone before long.

    I'm a big fan of 2 finger open "chords". That voicing sounds best (to my ear) in folk, country, fiddle tunes, and anything "modal" - in short, most of the music you are probably playing. Three finger triangular shape chord voicings (leading to the four finger chop chord) sound best in bluegrass and in other styles where you need a strong major chord sound. Knowledge of them gives you quick access to whatever chord you might happen to need anywhere on the fret board - including extended chords such as the 7th, and it gives you a good understanding of the fret board overall. Not having that voice available tends to cause serious bluegrassers to want another mandolin player. Bar shaped chord voicings work best for me in jazz, swing, and rock styles. They probably give the best access to minor chords, extended chords, and understanding the fretboard, but they are the least useful voicings in the music styles I currently play.

    FWIW, I play regularly with a professional musician who primarily plays finger style delta blues guitar with a lot of slide. His focus over the years has not been on full chords and chord structure. When he comes to the jam sessions and tries to lead a song, very few people can follow him through the chord progression, because he doesn't really play it. His approach leads him to, shall we say, unique timing (which is part of that genre) which nobody can follow. He is best as a solo artist, but frustrated because he wants to play other styles with a band. At age 70, he is making progress in learning chords, true chord progressions, and good timing based on playing chords. Most everyone at the jams are beginning to really look forward to him being there.

    Thanks for listening to my rant.
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  25. #68
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    You can build a 7 chord by either dropping the root or raising the 5. So 243x is pretty simple, so is 545x. You need the 3 and the b7, the 1 and 5 are optional. I wouldn’t bother with all 4 strings either.

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  26. #69
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Two-finger chords, in contrast, have to rely on some open string to get the third note of the chord, and there are only four possible open notes: G,D,A,E. If one of those four notes isn't a chord tone, then it will not be possible to play a two-fingered version of it. And if you just play two fretted notes at the same time, you are -- by definition! -- playing a double-stop, and not a chord.
    While you are correct, I disagree.

    It is my personal opinion that in ensemble performance, in most cases, I am not responsible for every darn note in the chord. Some guitar or banjo or maybe even the melody player, will have that note. Even in playing alone, so many times the flow of the tune itself will fill in the ambiguity of the two-note double stop. On quick passages this is especially true.

    The exceptions can be dealt with, or ignored.

    It is a cheat, i admit. If the goal is do it all, you are 100% right, no denying it. But if the goal is have a lot of fun and play the potatoes out of your instrument until such time it matters enough to do it right... well I am your man. Nobody has ever caught me at this, and if I had to do it right before I did anything I would never have done anything.


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  28. #70
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    No offense intended, but I think you're drastically reducing the realm of music and totally missing on essential factors - by boiling it all down to "a bunch of tunes"..

    An artist is vastly more than this, as is the quality, value, and meaning of his/her work. What Thile "knows" (if this terminology has any utility) is a different universe than where most of us dwell, and probably is closer to the celestial bodies.
    Nah.

    While true musicians have earned my respect and awe, the instrument has more possibilities than even they use. All musicians, no matter how good or accomplished, have their "querencia" out of which they play. (A pretty cool word, "querencia" comes from bullfighting, where a bull stakes out his querencia, a certain part of the bull ring where he feels strong and capable. I hardly ever get to use this word. Yay!)

    Of course few musicians say this in front of non-musicians or the audience. They deliberately portray the false image that they can do it all, when truth is, they can do what they do, and it is never all.


    My apologies for what has perhaps turned into a hijack of the thread. Your regularly scheduled program returns after this.
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  29. #71

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Nah.

    While true musicians have earned my respect and awe, the instrument has more possibilities than even they use. All musicians, no matter how good or accomplished, have their "querencia" out of which they play. (A pretty cool word, "querencia" comes from bullfighting, where a bull stakes out his querencia, a certain part of the bull ring where he feels strong and capable. I hardly ever get to use this word. Yay!)

    Of course few musicians say this in front of non-musicians or the audience. They deliberately portray the false image that they can do it all, when truth is, they can do what they do, and it is never all.


    My apologies for what has perhaps turned into a hijack of the thread. Your regularly scheduled program returns after this.

    Can you please provide examples of musicians "deliberately portray(ing) the false image that they can do it all"? What does this even mean? Can you clarify what you're talking about?

  30. #72

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    Ive some time here, so ...

    What is "all"? Of course, (we) are using the same instrument, essentially. But the instrument is just the tool, the vehicle of expression. It has limitations. Are you not hearing something, say, by Thile, that you would like to hear played on a mandolin? Where is he lacking?

    Artists are usually searching for something more and are rarely content to play their "set bag" in perpetuity; "tunes" - bigger, faster, more complex - are just a slice of it. For the improvising musician, such as Thile, new sounds, approaches, ideas are always possible. At such level of musicianship, the amount of information contained in each and every note is "worlds" beyond what the casual player is imbuing on the instrument or in the music.

    But of course, this is just what I hear.
    Mileage, of course, varies.

  31. #73

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    But hey I like to hear your experience - we's all different It's music!

    *heres some stuff from Charlie Haden that always stuck with me. http://www.newsavanna.com/meandering...7/me10707.html

    And if we can hear that in our playing, as we all should at least sometimes (chords or not), it should inspire us. I believe we can all attain that beauty. That would be my conception of "all." Maybe that's what you were saying? I don't know.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jan-12-2021 at 12:14am.

  32. #74

    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    This thread has been super helpful for me. It prompted me to find an alternate voicing for an F#m chord that made a much easier transition from A to F#m to B7. And in a different song from A to F#m to D.

  33. #75
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Hate Playing Chords

    That F#m, it's not 6402, is it? And it sure better not be F#m7 6400 that's running in your mind now, because I invented it. Yes, that's right - MY invention! Dang! I knew I should have copyrighted it.

    But yeah - your second song, then, could go 6200 6400 2002 - three two-finger, two open-string chords in a row.
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