Lacquer to varnish?

[Bill Baldridge]

I have a favorite mandolin, seven years old with a lacquered black top. The appropriate value is $8,000. Over the years flaws in the finish have appeared (faded areas) that seriously affect my enjoyment of the instrument. I am going to have a good builder remove the finish and redo it.

Do people ever remove black lacquer and replace with varnish, and if so, what are the consequences beyond cost?

[Tom C]

IMO..Id love it for what it is.

[Bill McCall]

I’m sure some folks will claim it will open up more. I wouldn’t count on it.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Do what makes you happy.

Btw, my 00-21 has a very crazed top, rest of the finish is immaculate, but I wouldn’t change it because the sound is too good.

Ymmv

[sunburst]

Several things come to mind here:
-Rule #1 when doing finish touch-up or refinish work: It is always easier to make it look worse than to make it look better.
-Black lacquer (or black finishes in general) are often used to conceal wood that is considered unsightly by musical instrument standards. Removing the finish could uncover visual "defects".
-There is potential for a slight change in the sound of your professed 'favorite' mandolin. Changes are likely to be slight if they show up at all, but do you really want to take the chance of changing the sound of your favorite mandolin?
-based in personal opinion here. Why would you want to make any major change to your favorite mandolin?

I'm not sure what your "faded" areas are, but it might be something that someone well versed in finish work can correct.

[Bill Baldridge]

John, I am so pleased that you weighed in. One of my most trusted and respected voices at the Cafe. "Well, John said," always gets me in my comfort zone.

[rcc56]

Ditto everything John said.

In addition, the color from black lacquer often penetrates into the wood. And even with clear lacquer finishes, the sealing coats penetrate into the wood. To completely get rid of the old finish, it is often necessary to sand the instrument, sometimes quite a bit. Then you risk compromising not only the tone of the instrument, but also the structural integrity.

I would not attempt to refinish any instrument with varnish unless it was quite heavily built. You're going to have to get all traces of the original finish off to insure that the varnish will adhere over the long haul. And that means thinning the wood.

If the "fading" is simply a deterioration of gloss, a highly seasoned professional may be able to polish the finish and restore the gloss if the finish is not too thin. Bear in mind that this is not a job for an amateur. But any attempts to touch up or overcoat worn spots are quite risky. See John's Rule #1.

Many of us consider natural aging to be a badge of honor.

[Bill McCall]

Another option is to sell,trade it for a new, shiny one. Lots of risk in having it refinished.

[Rob Roy]

Don't touch the lacquer! If it's valued at $8k, it must be by a good luthier. Lacquer cracks and crazes, shrinks and color shifts as it ages. But because if its composition, it becomes integrated with the wood (which moves a lot) and that is part of what makes some older instruments sound so fantastic (and why boutique builders use it on top-end instruments).

Now if you're wanting to change the tone as well aesthetics, that's another story. Stripping the top and refinishing will be largely starting over as a new instrument tone-wise. Traditional varnish generally will be softer, not wear as well as lacquer, and could sound more mellow- if that's what you're looking for. Modern catalyzed finishes are incredibly durable, but may not have the vintage tone you seek. Perhaps post a picture so Sunburst and other experts here can evaluate what you're concerned about.

[Dale Ludewig]

Catalyzed finish. They are very durable. They also tend to be pretty brittle compared to instrument lacquers and varnishes. Instrument lacquer, such as available from Mohawk, have plasticizers (sp?) in them to make them more flexible than typical catalyzed finishes. The durability of catalyzed finishes is usually a trade off, and the brittleness, especially a factor when the finish is not very thin, will almost certainly increase the likelihood of crazing. I know this personally from a guitar I finished some years ago with a very hard catalyzed lacquer/varnish. It had to come off and stripper barely touched it.

As others have opined, I'd leave your black finish alone.

[Bill Baldridge]

Thanks everyone. It feels like I am hearing the voices of mandolin lovers with a lot of technical knowledge. I hear you. I will not do anything to the top of my mandolin except dust it.

Having a mandolin build for me was a once in a lifetime experience. The black finish does not hide sub-par wood; I used the best that he offered with the hope that I was buying better tone. Within my budget, tone was my first concern and the deciding factor as to choice of builders. He worked with me on voicing the mandolin. Playability was my second concern, and was addressed with the size and shape of the neck, frets, tuners, pick guard. With the essentials covered, I still got to make the mandolin look the way I wanted. How cool is that? I still enjoy and pay attention to how it looks. If someone were to damage the finish I would not be a happy camper.

That being said, I bought it to play and don't wear white gloves to handle it. I carry it around from one music store and jam to the next, play the best mandolins I can find, and always leave with my mandolin and a smile. At home, it stays out of the case, within easy reach, in a humidified room. Like others I an proud of the play wear. Finding the finish wearing off the back of the neck brought a smile. At the same time, if there was a reasonable way to fix the finish I would do it. The answer is, “There is not.” Thanks, I will move on.

Having a place to go with my well intended, but ignorant, questions adds so much to my enjoyment of mandolins. I always learn more than I asked.