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Thread: Economy or alternate picking

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    Default Economy or alternate picking

    I've been using economy picking with my guitars for years. Since I'm new to mandolins, is there a preferred picking style? Most of the guitar forums say there's really no right or wrong method as far as which picking style to choose, it's really all about personal preference. Is the same true for the mandolin?

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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Well, I have it heard it said that the right is the "more important" hand in both guitar and mandolin. There is a "formal" method, using alternating up and down picking and using the down pick motion for emphasis. Right hand should be loose at the wrist. The right hand should "float" at a consistent distance above the strings and bridge, and is often used to dampen strings. The Right hand should "always be ready" to pick a string (course).
    Mandolin, like a guitar, is used for both chords and melody, so picking concepts are not all that different.
    All this being said, yes it is open to personal preference and style, and "style is based on limitations"- John Hartford
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Watching videos of the masters will give you lots of info. While various notes can be had with economy picking, the sound/timing/attitude gives a different sound and feel when using lots of down strokes. You'll see this a lot with Monroe style tunes, and a good example is the mandolin picker for Flatt Lonesome playing "You'll Get No More of Me" in their live performance in the Caverns. Jesse McReynolds seems to break lots of general picking rules with his cross picking rolls -- amazing timing.

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    You'll get lots of opinions and certainly lots of great pickers break the rules. but...

    You should learn to play mandolin with alternate picking. When you've mastered that, you can do whatever else you need to do without asking.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Loubowski View Post
    ... it's really all about personal preference.
    Yep. Personal style and preference.

    My preference is alternate picking with a solid groove. Master that, then deviate wherever and whenever you want for whatever reason. IOW I'm in the same camp as Phil.
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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Are they two different things (economy versus alternate) or two names for the same thing? By alternate, do you mean alternating or alternative?

    A guess: They both mean picking on both the up- and downstroke. As a guitar player, I'd say it's purely personal preference. But in learning mandolin, I've found that there are stricter rules governing picking behavior. (Regardless, I still pick like a guitar player. Oh, well.)

    As people have said above, up- and downstrokes can give you different sounds. Just like on guitar, down can be more dynamic, up can be more casual.

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Economy picking is what was called "sweep picking",,brought to the forefront by Frank Gambale,,but way before him it was used by Chet Atkins,the "Chet Atkins arppegio",, this is the basic sweeping arpeggio that every rock/metal guitarist abuse,,very effective on electric guitar,,I've experimented with sweeping on the mandolin,and it's very possible,you can reach amazing speeds,,but not practical on the mandolin,,you have volume and pick pressures that you have to be consistent with,, not the greatest technique on the mandolin,sometimes it happens naturally when crossing strings,,but for the most part stick to alternate dudu picking..

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    I suggest using both methods as is appropriate for the particular musical need.

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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Economy picking is what was called "sweep picking",,brought to the forefront by Frank Gambale,,but way before him it was used by Chet Atkins,the "Chet Atkins arppegio",, this is the basic sweeping arpeggio that every rock/metal guitarist abuse,,very effective on electric guitar,,I've experimented with sweeping on the mandolin,and it's very possible,you can reach amazing speeds,,but not practical on the mandolin,,you have volume and pick pressures that you have to be consistent with,, not the greatest technique on the mandolin,sometimes it happens naturally when crossing strings,,but for the most part stick to alternate dudu picking..
    My understanding of economy picking is that it is a little different than sweep picking. I had thought sweep picking was generally sequences of notes where 3 or more strings are played in one pick motion. So, for example, it'd be very hard to play a standard fiddle tune using sweep picking all the way through. Economy picking, on the other hand means that you generally pick alternate down and up (or up and down) for successive notes on the same string, BUT if you move to a higher string after a downstroke, you play the note on the higher string with a downstroke. Similarly, moving to a lower string may result in two successive upstrokes. This is in contrast to straight alternating picking where downstrokes vs upstrokes are determined by the rhythm - for example in a typical fiddle tune like St Anne's your downstrokes will coincide with your foot-tapping.

    I think most players playing bluegrass or old-time music tend to use straight alternating picking. It's easier to get into the swing of the music. Probably most players of Irish music do also for reels and hornpipes, but I've come across quite a few tenor banjo players who do something close to what I describe above as economy picking (or a bit of both).

    Personally I use straight alternating picking for everything I play (except jigs) so I'm afraid I can't demonstrate economy picking. If I see an example on YouTube I'll post it.

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Sweep picking is the same thing as economy picking,as laid out by Frank Gambale,,as it is almost impossible to actually sweep pick an entire tune or improvisation,,sweep picking also incorporates alternate picking also,,

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by ampyjoe View Post
    My understanding of economy picking is that it is a little different than sweep picking. I had thought sweep picking was generally sequences of notes where 3 or more strings are played in one pick motion. So, for example, it'd be very hard to play a standard fiddle tune using sweep picking all the way through. Economy picking, on the other hand means that you generally pick alternate down and up (or up and down) for successive notes on the same string, BUT if you move to a higher string after a downstroke, you play the note on the higher string with a downstroke. Similarly, moving to a lower string may result in two successive upstrokes. This is in contrast to straight alternating picking where downstrokes vs upstrokes are determined by the rhythm - for example in a typical fiddle tune like St Anne's your downstrokes will coincide with your foot-tapping.

    I think most players playing bluegrass or old-time music tend to use straight alternating picking. It's easier to get into the swing of the music. Probably most players of Irish music do also for reels and hornpipes, but I've come across quite a few tenor banjo players who do something close to what I describe above as economy picking (or a bit of both).

    Personally I use straight alternating picking for everything I play (except jigs) so I'm afraid I can't demonstrate economy picking. If I see an example on YouTube I'll post it.
    Interesting! I hardly ever even think about whether I'm picking up or down. Maybe I'll start. Thanks!

    PS - Just Googled sweep picking to find out what it is. Ow ow ow!

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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Chris Thile is an advocate of alternate picking, FWIW. I'm working on "Another New World" and will admit it's tough to maintain the DUDU consistently at that speed with those arpeggios (as opposed to DDU or all down strokes). But, I'm trying to make myself go slowly to get the alternate picking down on it. We'll see how it goes given my talent deficiency...
    Chuck

  13. #13

    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Sweep picking is the same thing as economy picking,as laid out by Frank Gambale,,as it is almost impossible to actually sweep pick an entire tune or improvisation,,sweep picking also incorporates alternate picking also,,
    I looked at a book of Frank Gambale's on Amazon and you are quite right, what he calls sweep picking is exactly what I understand as economy picking. I had thought I'd come across the term sweep picking used to describe arpeggios that are executed by down or upstrokes that cross many strings. I think I've also heard the term raking for something close to this, though I'd thought it necessarily also used heavy damping.

    Some Irish style banjo players use something that is similar to economy picking for entire tunes, but it's perhaps more free than how Frank Gambale describes it. For example, look at Barney McKenna on any YouTube video, and you'll see that his pick directions are not standard alternating. It looks to me that he plays two upstrokes in a row quite frequently when the tune moves to a lower string.

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by ampyjoe View Post
    . . I think I've also heard the term raking for something close to this, though I'd thought it necessarily also used heavy damping. . . .
    I think so, too. On a squareneck guitar, if I remember right, raking is damping all but the final, highest note. Doing it hard and loud is called an angry rake.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    ive been a using economy picking playing guitar for years...BUT using it on mandolin can be tough. stings are so close together as well... Alt. picking has creeped back into my mandolin playing and it "feels" better and grooves. i still use economy playing mando in spots but alot of the melodies fall/feel better using Alt. picking im finding out...Now i went to play a gig on guitar last week a jazz gig im like oh crap..my hand and brain are like what are you doing..lol..so theres that..kinda screwed me up a little.

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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    I’m only two years into playing mandolin and octave mandolin but I have yet to find a teacher or coach who doesn’t espouse alternate picking for beginning-to-intermediate players. I know there’s a place for sweep/economy picking but I believe that it’s genre-specific or style-specific. It suits guitar quite well but in general it’s less useful on mandolin. I’m still learning, though!
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    The only time I don't use alternate picking is if I'm doing Jesse McReynolds style crosspicking or jig picking. I think alternating helps me keep good time and simplifies my right hand motion.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Loubowski View Post
    I've been using economy picking with my guitars for years. Since I'm new to mandolins, is there a preferred picking style? Most of the guitar forums say there's really no right or wrong method as far as which picking style to choose, it's really all about personal preference. Is the same true for the mandolin?
    Well kinda but not really. I mean yea eventually you need to be comfortable, and their are options, but no I don't believe its all about personal preference. (I am skeptical that it is for guitar either. But I don't play guitar.)

    For example, it depends on what kind of music you want to play. A jig may sound much better with down up up picking.

    It also depends on what you are running into. If you want to tremolo and you are much stronger starting your tremolo down, then you may want to be up the note before.

    Pick direction adds a subtle emphasis in one direction, which may not be what you want on a given piece.

    If it is a classical piece, I often run it past my "coach". She plays fiddle as well and she does an amazing job marking up a piece to make it more beautiful. Pick direction, alternate fingerings, how to avoid string crossings by changing position - there is a lot there.

    A good compass for me is to find a picking style that makes the tune more beautiful. Of course this might be down up down up, and is for many tunes. But not all and not always.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    It suits guitar quite well ...
    There are so many generalizations made on this topic.

    There is one rule, or law, that applies to music - play what sounds good. There is plenty of latitude to deviate from "norms." But IMO, ignore the norms to your peril.

    This just kind of expounds on what I wrote above, 3.5 years ago:

    Sweep picking is a technique useful on both mandolin and guitar. Alternate picking is a technique useful on both, and jig picking is a technique useful on both. Alternate picking is an all-important technique that I believe should be carefully taught to beginners. Other picking techniques should also be learned once a person has learned to establish a groove.

    I'm sure there are many who may disagree with my position there, but I wholeheartedly endorse that methodology. And, I find it strange that anyone would pit one technique against another, simply because I choose to master as many as possible. Learning music and learning an instrument are both lifelong pursuits in my world view, and there is always another sea of material and so much more "technique" to learn and try to master. There is really not much "this vs. that" when it comes to technique, unless you provide more context for the choice. "On mandolin vs. on guitar" doesn't make sense to me as relayed in this topic.

    But I've written enough, thanks for letting me ramble. Play hard.
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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Alternate except when cross picking.

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    I envy all of you! After so many years using fingerpicks on guitar, I just couldn't get the hang of flatpicking on mando. Tried and tried. So now I just use my fingerpicks and leave the sexy stuff to the rest of you.
    Last edited by Charlie Bernstein; Jul-18-2023 at 6:19pm.
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    Registered User doc holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economy or alternate picking

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Economy picking is what was called "sweep picking",,brought to the forefront by Frank Gambale,,but way before him it was used by Chet Atkins,the "Chet Atkins arppegio",, this is the basic sweeping arpeggio that every rock/metal guitarist abuse,,very effective on electric guitar,,I've experimented with sweeping on the mandolin,and it's very possible,you can reach amazing speeds,,but not practical on the mandolin,,you have volume and pick pressures that you have to be consistent with,, not the greatest technique on the mandolin,sometimes it happens naturally when crossing strings,,but for the most part stick to alternate dudu picking..
    .....& Django Reinhardt played that way before Chet Atkins was born...

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