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Thread: Fan-fret mandocello build

  1. #26
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    One of the most difficult parts to get clear in my mind was how to handle the neck/head transition. The simplest way is just to plane the head perpendicular to the top of the fingerboard, but that means the head sits at a weird angle, which I didn't want. Here is a YouTube video of someone having a go at explaining the 'proper' way of doing it.

    I thought up my own simple way of doing it:

    Draw a line square across the neck blank level with the top of the nut on the treble side
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    Plane the head angle to this line in the normal way:
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    The fingerboard will overhang the head on the bass side:
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    Draw a line on the head level with the top of the nut:
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    Glue a block of fingerboard wood to line up with that line:
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    Plane level with neck:
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    The fingerboard will sit on the resulting wedge (bad photo - there isn't a gap there, honest!):
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    Funny how you find existing threads on the Cafe just after you posted things yourself . . . here is an old thread on fan fret headstock angles.
    Last edited by tonydxn; Nov-14-2019 at 4:43pm.
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

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  3. #27
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Ok, Tonydxn et al: after you solve this luthiery puzzle the next level it to create a fan-fret Gelas model mandolin. I think I might have to take some dramamine for that one.

    Here's our friend John Maddock (Tavy) talking and playing a mandolin. "and it has not been hit on the face with a large hammer."

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    Jim

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  5. #28
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    One of the most difficult parts to get clear in my mind was how to handle the neck/head transition.
    Haha, yes those angles will make your brain hurt - the way you did yours was pretty much what I did, which is to say a small ebony fillet under the bass side. Certainly not my idea, I think it came from around here....

    after you solve this luthiery puzzle the next level it to create a fan-fret Gelas model mandolin
    Ah now steady, even I wouldn't want to do that, and I've surely done some daft things

    You could stick a Ceccherini style resonator/soundboard inside for even bigger "zing" though...

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  7. #29
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    You could stick a Ceccherini style resonator/soundboard inside for even bigger "zing" though...
    Challenges enough on this one, thanks!

    I think I've covered most aspects of the build that are different because of the fan-fret format. I'll post occasional photos as I pass significant milestones. And a sound sample when it's done (unless it's too embarassing . . .)
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

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  9. #30
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Sides glued to neck:
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    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  10. #31
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Back ready to glue on:
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    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  11. #32
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Soundboard ready to glue on, and a closer look at the struts I've done:
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    I took Marty Jacobson's advice (post #12) and added some lengthwise struts. These will also support the ends of the bridge, which otherwise would just have been sitting over unsupported soundboard (I was never sure if that was a good idea).
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  12. #33

    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Should work. Looking forward to hearing how it sounds.

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  14. #34
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    Should work. Looking forward to hearing how it sounds.
    My bracing is much lighter than Joe Mendel put into the one he made for Walt (post #12 & 16). Walt put some pretty heavy strings on his. I will be using much lighter ones.
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  15. #35
    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Looks good so far! The headstock is certainly the trickiest part of these, so if you can do that, you can do the rest. My preference is to use a compound headstock angle, which for me is a little easier to wrap my mind around than the fretboard wedge:


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  17. #36
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Ready for spraying. I'm not sure how long that will take as I'm trying a new finish
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    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

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  19. #37
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Wow that's quick.... looking good there.

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  21. #38
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Marking string slot positions on nut and bridge saddle. I am using the spacing given by Sunburst in Post#166 of his thread.
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    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  22. #39
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Here are some shots of the finished instrument:
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    I am working on a sound sample . . .
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

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  24. #40
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    It will take me a while to produce anything with this instrument which might be considered musical. When I have, I will post it on YouTube and put a link on here. In the meantime, here is a video of me just about managing a simple scale of C major: Mcello1c.mp4
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  25. #41
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Nice workmanship. Good deep bassy sound.
    Bill
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  27. #42
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Good stuff!

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  29. #43
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Here is a better sound sample https://youtu.be/kOWVB7iu_sg

    First of all I have to say this thing is a pig to hold. Maybe they all are. After five minutes I’m getting back pain from screwing myself round so that I can see where I’m putting my fingers. Maybe the f-style ones with points you can hook over your leg are easier, or the fat-onion shaped ones. Probably the Gibson ones, with their smaller profile and deeper body are easier to hold, even if they don’t work well acoustically. If I ever make another one, I will reduce the size of the body profile and make it a bit deeper, which would hopefully make it more comfortable to hold. This would raise the resonant frequency of the back and soundboard, so I would try to counteract that by making them thinner and the soundhole a bit bigger. Apart from that . . .

    It wasn’t complicated to build (though I wouldn’t recommend it as a first project). Apart from needing extra thinking time, it wasn’t much more work than a straightforward build (certainly not three times as much). I don’t keep any record of time spent on my builds any more, but I reckon it took around 150 hours, plus a bit extra for messing about with an unfamiliar finish.

    A more competent player would be able to give a more comprehensive assessment of the instrument, but the bass notes do seem to be satisfyingly rich, while the shorter scale length at the top end keeps it reasonably playable. I would really have struggled playing that tune if all the strings had the 27” scale length. I’m aware that some people commented earlier that the fan-fret arrangement doesn’t really do anything for four-course mandolin-family instruments. I’m sure that’s true for mandolins, mandolas and OMs. But mandocellos are a special case, because of having to make them sound good without being too hard to play. Overall, I'm pleased with the way it turned out and I’d say it was worth pursuing the idea.

    Some facts and figures:
    String gauges: 19 27 40 60, which give about 22lbs of tension per string, as recommended by Graham McDonald in one of those threads. I had them custom-made by Newtone Strings.

    Weight without hardware 1.4kg, with hardware 1.8kg (that's roughly 3lbs and 4lbs).

    Resonant frequency about 10 cents below A.

    Please let me know what y’all think of it. (I have my own opinions, but they're biased . . .)
    Last edited by tonydxn; Dec-27-2019 at 7:06am.
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  30. #44

    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    It sounds really good to me especially for the classical-type piece you played. My old friend Martin Jenkins played a Mandocello which he christened the "Swine o phone" probably because it was a swine to hold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGHN_BO2vnI

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  32. #45
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Sounds about right to me

    And yes, they are bugger to hold if you make the top wide enough to resonate near that low C. Mine is guitar bodied which is easier to hold, but sometimes I wish I'd gone for a wider top for some really stonking bass notes.... but it's all compromises whatever you do!

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  34. #46
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    . . . sometimes I wish I'd gone for a wider top for some really stonking bass notes....
    You could always make another one, John
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  35. #47

    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    The Mandocello looks great. Congrats. On the fan fret matter - When you Barre a chord is your finger slanted aligned with the fret?

  36. #48
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Quote Originally Posted by Happymandolin View Post
    The Mandocello looks great. Congrats. On the fan fret matter - When you Barre a chord is your finger slanted aligned with the fret?
    Thank you . . . I'm afraid I'm not a good enough player to do barre chords, but I suppose your finger would need to be roughly parallel to the frets. However if you're doing barre chords, you would presumably be up the neck somewhere where the frets are closer to square anyway.
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

  37. #49
    Harley Marty
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Well done! That's a fine instrument to my eyes & ears! I'm a big believer in straps irrespective of how easy an instrument is to hold. One thing I'm curios about is if there's an issue sound wise with the fact that you're picking closer to the bridge on the top strings than the lower ones. I'm thinking for really fast trad tunes. Raising it higher up with a strap & holding it level would improve the pick angle to the bridge I suppose. Well done I'm sure you'll be as proud as punch when you pass it to an accomplished player out in a session. Marty

  38. #50
    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fan-fret mandocello build

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Marty View Post
    . . . One thing I'm curios about is if there's an issue sound wise with the fact that you're picking closer to the bridge on the top strings than the lower ones . . .
    Thanks Marty. Yes, it did take me a while to get used to that. At first I was just too close to the bridge, and it mattered. When I moved up to the soundhole it sounded OK across all the strings though. It's just a case of getting used to the quirks of the design I reckon.

    I did try a strap, and yes, it certainly helped. If I was playing seriously at a gig or session I would definitely use one. But for a sound sample I decided not to bother.
    Mandolins: Bandolim by Antonio Pereira Cabral
    German flatback mandola by unknown maker converted from a descant Waldzither

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