Six strings in fifths

[jfonner]

I have/play a 1931 Gibson TB-1 tenor banjo, currently in Irish tuning, a Blueridge BR -40T tuned CGDA and a Morgan Monroe MAM -200 mandolin. Mostly, I confuse myself transitioning between instruments but at least the chord structures are all the same. The logic of Fifths tunings makes sense to me. I also have a 1948 Martin T-17 tiple but that's a different logic altogether.

I just bought an old Kay parlor guitar on eBay (approx 24" nut to bridge with a steel reinforced neck) pretty inexpensively with the idea of tuning it in fifths all the way across, FCGDAE, to see what I can do with it. So strings 1-4 would be mando, strings 2-5 would be tenor and strings 3-6 would be, well, something else.

There are a few blogs elsewhere about eccentric guitarists trying this but the longer neck on a standard guitar requires too much tension on the first string so it breaks. I'm curious if the shorter neck will help get around that problem. I'm going to try using an 007 or an 006 first (or the smallest standard string I can find) and take my time stretching it up to E. After that I'll use standard tenor strings (I have 010, 016, 024w, 036w on my Blueridge) and then something fatter (042w maybe) for the low F.

Maybe I'm retreading a path that's already been taken and abandoned by others. But I figure if I can't play well enough to impress the guys at my weekly jam then at least I can baffle 'em with my crazy set-up & tuning.

Any thoughts, suggestions, jokes or warnings?

[djweiss]

I'm curious about the results...same crazy idea has been on my mind. Please post final string gauges.

[MdJ]

i have an old epi ft45 cortez tuned in 5ths - it's a 24.75" scale instrument - FCGDA(e)

i use a thomstik .008 for the 'A' - and a .010 for the re-entrant ('e') - i hope you are successful in finding a non re-entrant solution for the 'e' - cripes tho - on my guitar even the 'A' string is a little scary ......

BTW, i find that a good string tension calculator is really helpful in these situations.....

moistly

MdJ

[Jim Garber]

I haven't tried any of these...

How about Bb-F-C-G-D-A using the Bstring (.016 or so) for the guitar as the top, etc.?

Or octave tuning for the top 4, using a guitar D for the top string and down into the bass area?

[zoukboy]

I have/play a 1931 Gibson TB-1 tenor banjo, currently in Irish tuning, a Blueridge BR -40T tuned CGDA and a Morgan Monroe MAM -200 mandolin. Mostly, I confuse myself transitioning between instruments but at least the chord structures are all the same. The logic of Fifths tunings makes sense to me. I also have a 1948 Martin T-17 tiple but that's a different logic altogether.

I just bought an old Kay parlor guitar on eBay (approx 24" nut to bridge with a steel reinforced neck) pretty inexpensively with the idea of tuning it in fifths all the way across, FCGDAE, to see what I can do with it. So strings 1-4 would be mando, strings 2-5 would be tenor and strings 3-6 would be, well, something else.

There are a few blogs elsewhere about eccentric guitarists trying this but the longer neck on a standard guitar requires too much tension on the first string so it breaks. I'm curious if the shorter neck will help get around that problem. I'm going to try using an 007 or an 006 first (or the smallest standard string I can find) and take my time stretching it up to E. After that I'll use standard tenor strings (I have 010, 016, 024w, 036w on my Blueridge) and then something fatter (042w maybe) for the low F.

Maybe I'm retreading a path that's already been taken and abandoned by others. But I figure if I can't play well enough to impress the guys at my weekly jam then at least I can baffle 'em with my crazy set-up & tuning.

Any thoughts, suggestions, jokes or warnings?

If you mean actual pitch mandolin tuning, that is G3 D4 A4 E5 (instead of octave mandolin: G2 D3 A3 E4), then there is no way it will work. You're talking about tuning the first string an octave HIGHER (E54) than the first string on the guitar (E4). The outer limit for E5 is around 17" and then you would be using a very thin string like an .007 or .008.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Starting at the E4 and working down you're going to need a mandocello string for the C (.065 - .070) and a tugboat cable for the F...

[zoukboy]

Compare these tensions:

The first set is standard guitar on a 25.5" scale (just for comparison):

len 25.5"

E4 .012" PL == 23.35#
B3 .016" PL == 23.3#
G3 .024" PB == 30.24#
D3 .032" PB == 30.53#
A2 .042" PB == 29.94#
E2 .053" PB == 26.06#
total == 163.42#

Here is a set for your proposed tuning:

len 24"

E5 .007" PL == 28.14#
A4 .009" PL == 20.73#
D4 .013" PL == 19.27#
G3 .022" PB == 22.64#
C3 .032" PB == 21.46#
F2 .050" PB == 23.28#
total == 135.53#

.007 is about the lightest gauge string most manufacturers make, but I doubt seriously you would even get it up to B4 or C5 before it snapped. There is a source for super-extra-light gauge strings on the web, .006 and maybe even .005 for extended range 8, 9, or 10 string guitars, but I am not sure even that thin of a string would go up to the mandolin E5. I think they only recommend tuning up to A4.

[Eddie Sheehy]

How about
E4 = .010
A4 = .014
D4 = .023
G3 = .034
C3 = .056
F2 = .070

What does that look like for tension?

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have a 12-string guitar set up as a 10-string mandocello with Octave Strings on the bass courses so I'm just missing the Low F pair... I believe my C pair are .056 and .023 (or something like that) so I guess the F's could be .065 and .034? But since my nut and bridge are modified for 10 strings I can't try it out - not that I'd want to.

[MdJ]

A 3/4 scale 6 string instrument (22.5" scale) might be something to consider.... I always thought a baby Taylor might be a candidate....or any 3/4 guitar with the biggest possible box....

[Eddie Sheehy]

This is how I did my 12-string, I imagine it would work with single strings too:
The Guitar strings are eE aA dD gG BB EE

I tuned the eE down to cC
I tuned the aA down to gG
the dD stayed as is
I dropped the gG
the BB down to AA
the EE as is

I had a nut reslotted for 10 strings - increased space between the courses evenly and kept the intra-course space- ditto the saddle.

Getting a Low F might be a problem...

[Marty Jacobson]

Any videos of that instrument, Eddie? Sounds cool.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Did I mention it's the top-neck of a Doubleneck?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Bury Me Beneath The Willow

[jfonner]

Thanks for all the great ideas & comments. Here's the set that I got at my local shop in anticipation of the arrival of my Kay Parlor:
E5 - 007 (I got 3 of these anticipating a few casualties)
A - 010
D - 016
G - 024w
C - 036w
F - 046w

This seems not to far off Zoukboy's recommendations. If I can't get this to work, I'll probably try a recumbant E4 with a 014, that way I'd still have mando chord structures for the first four.

Guitar should show up tomorrow or Tuesday so "stay tuned."
Thanks to everyone who commented. I really appreciate the ideas & encouragement.

[Mike Floorstand]

I used to have a 12-string guitar tuned CGDDAE, the pair of D courses can allow droning on one while the melody is fretted on the other.

In the end though I found it too much of a handful and traded it for a bouzouki.

[groveland]

There are a few blogs elsewhere about eccentric guitarists trying this but the longer neck on a standard guitar requires too much tension on the first string so it breaks.

I never thought of myself as eccentric.
I use fifths-tuning on guitar, both electric and acoustic, exclusively... I first started with FCGDAE, overall tension was fine, but even with a modified bass string at the bottom (090) that one was impossible to tune and flabby. Then I went to CGDAEB with the help of the aforementioned specially designed 006, which worked, but it could take up to an hour and several breakages to get it up to pitch; then it could last 9 months - But that is not feasible in a live situation. I ended up using NST (New Standard Tuning) ala Robert Fripp, i.e., CGDAEG with a 008 or so at the top. I have been there ever since.

That is my recommendation: NST for 6 strings on a standard guitar scale. I use it on my acoustic guitars, cittern (minus the extra G), my ES335 and a Telecaster/Steinberger splice. It should work fine with your 24" scale. John Pearse used to make a set of strings for NST.

As for prior discussions, you can find some in the "CGDAEG (NST) And Other Deviants" social group here, which John McGann started. There are a lot of discussions about experiments and string gauges there.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Wow! a .090 F being flabby... I guess I wasn't far off with the tugboat cable... That top string dropped to G certainly makes sense...

[jfonner]

groveland,
Thanks for your response. I have come to realize my own eccentricities so I just put anyone with like interests in the boat with me. I'll look into NST although putting myself in the same boat as a musician with Robert Fripp is a bit like comparing my basketball abilities (3" vertical leap and so on) to Michael Jordan.

[lukdesut]

Hi! This is my site!

http://grefdgtres.com

Delete this Sory!

[Rvl]

I play CGDAE with .072~.013 strings and 670mm scale
I have 2 others but they have 25.4" scales
.008 or .009 could be added to make it a 6 string

[Rvl]

I think a low F would be just ok with a .105
Probably .110 maybe .115 would be better
That is why a longer scale would be better

I have 3 FCGD and a FCGDA but they all use shorter scales

[jfonner]

As Zoukboy predicted, at 24.5 inches, I couldn't get the 007 any higher than A# without breaking. I dropped the first three strings down an octave with E - 012, A - 016, D - 028w based on the Irish tuning & strings on my tenor banjo. Then I jump back up an octave with G - 024, C - 036 & F - 046. Picking across the 3rd & 4th strings is weird but the four string chords all across the instrument sound interesting. I may try sticking with Irish tuning across the first 5 strings but leave the 6th string as a re-entrant F at 046w.

[zoukboy]

That seems like a reasonable strategy and there are numerous instruments around the world that use reentrant tunings. I have a Cretan laouto that is traditionally tuned G2G3 D2D3 A2A3 E4E4. Look at that closely and you will see that the lowest pitched course is the 3rd, and that the 4th and second courses are only one step apart:

[groveland]

That seems like a reasonable strategy and there are numerous instruments around the world that use reentrant tunings. I have a Cretan laouto that is traditionally tuned G2G3 D2D3 A2A3 E4E4. Look at that closely and you will see that the lowest pitched course is the 3rd, and that the 4th and second courses are only one step apart...

Cool. So on the Cretan laouto you can play an ascending scale by alternating between the 4th and 2nd courses: G (4th course) A (2nd course) B (4th course) C (2nd course) and then grab the D (3rd course).

I have a charango and its traditional tuning uses that kind of re-entrant strategy. At first I thought it was crazy, but it turned out as really ingenious - extremely handy and easy to work.