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Thread: Those other chords?

  1. #26
    Registered User OldMandoMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    Here is an exercise I hand out in the 2nd session of my Intro to Jazz Guitar class. I call it the ii-V-I cycle with a little explanation at the bottom of how I-IV-V-I easily morphs into I-ii-V-I (substituting the relative minor of IV which is ii) and then into ii-V-I-I.
    The 3rd session expands the chords into iim7th-V7th-IMaj7th;
    The 4th session moves them into (iim7thb5-V7thb9-IMaj7th) (or you can resolve to im7th) and presto! You're playing Jazz!!

    The chart shows (arabic numbers are fret locations of your index finger) the classic whole-tone-descending of ii becoming the new I and in 6 steps you're back where you started. If you abbreviate each tonal center by skipping the actual center (which I call cascading ii-Vs), you've done something very similar to what David has shown from the "Fake" Book. (Sorry, but I love to call it that!) It's all over many jazz tunes although not as the complete cycle.

    I'm sure some of you Mando-Gurus out there can come up with the best mando chord forms for this exercise but I'm not fond of going to the 12th fret on mando. These guitar chords work well & pretty easily.

    (From Davids post)
    Jordu's bridge is just another string of V/V's

    In Cm from the Real Book

    G7 C7 / F7 Bb7 / Eb7 Ab7 / Db7

    F7 Bb7 / Eb7 Ab7 / Db7 Gb7 / G7

    Nothing odd or difficult about the chords
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  3. #27

    Default Re: Those other chords?

    Apart from the theory, what would be some common songs that a person can think about when you want those chord progressions? (thinking "Get Together" by Youngbloods, with the I to bVII chord.)

  4. #28
    Registered User OldMandoMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by icuker View Post
    Apart from the theory, what would be some common songs that a person can think about when you want those chord progressions? (thinking "Get Together" by Youngbloods, with the I to bVII chord.)
    Queuing off your mention of "Get Together" I'll focus first on classic rock/folkrock. All these tunes can be found on the YouTube machine in arrangements that I describe below.

    -Otis Redding's "Dock of the Bay" is a classic use of Major II, III, VI, & a bVII at the end of the refrain. I can imagine he & Steve Cropper sitting in some Pub saying "Let's write a song using only major chords named for all seven steps of the scale!"

    -You can add a #V into the turn-around for almost any blues tune if you like.

    -I mentioned in an earlier post, The Eagles "Desperado" for a perfect example of a minor IV. Only we "old-timers" might recall Ricky Nelson's "Lonesome Town" for a lovely Major III & also a minor IV.

    -Woman's Blues which became 'Rider' by the Kingston Trio, The Grateful Dead & others, employs an extensive use of bVIIs and bIIIs.

    - “Rocky Top” by Bryant & Bryant owes a lot of it’s appeal to the bVIIs in the in the refrain which starts off on the vi of the key which is uncharacteristic of Bluegrass.

    -Neil Young’s “Old Man” starts out with a bIII, very unusual, and it’s used throughout the song. If it’s done on guitar in double-drop-D-tuning it has a neat effect.

    -The looping I-IV-bVII-IV of Stephen Stills’ “Johnny’s Garden” by Manassas is extremely catchy. In his “4 & 20” he uses only I-bIII-IV for the whole progression.

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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    (This last bit didn't copy into my post)
    ...
    -Tim Hardin’s “If I Were a Carpenter” is all I-bVII-IV and it’s the same for Steve Miller’s “Jet Airliner”.

    -John Fogerty’s “Green River” is also only a three chorded but it’s not not I-IV-V. It certainly has a bluesy twist but it’s all I-#V-IV, rather unusual.

    -In Canned Heat’s cool arrangement of “One More River to Cross” penned by my friend Daniel Moore is a classic use of a Major III. It’s a cool tune to play in an open tuning on guitar.

    If a student of mine can do an accurate analysis of The Doobie Bros hit “China Grove” then I know they get it in the world of Borrowed Chords.

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  8. #30
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldMandoMan View Post
    Here is an exercise I hand out in the 2nd session of my Intro to Jazz Guitar class. I call it the ii-V-I cycle with a little explanation at the bottom of how I-IV-V-I easily morphs into I-ii-V-I (substituting the relative minor of IV which is ii) and then into ii-V-I-I.
    The 3rd session expands the chords into iim7th-V7th-IMaj7th;
    The 4th session moves them into (iim7thb5-V7thb9-IMaj7th) (or you can resolve to im7th) and presto! You're playing Jazz!!

    The chart shows (arabic numbers are fret locations of your index finger) the classic whole-tone-descending of ii becoming the new I and in 6 steps you're back where you started. If you abbreviate each tonal center by skipping the actual center (which I call cascading ii-Vs), you've done something very similar to what David has shown from the "Fake" Book. (Sorry, but I love to call it that!) It's all over many jazz tunes although not as the complete cycle.

    I'm sure some of you Mando-Gurus out there can come up with the best mando chord forms for this exercise but I'm not fond of going to the 12th fret on mando. These guitar chords work well & pretty easily.

    (From Davids post)
    Jordu's bridge is just another string of V/V's

    In Cm from the Real Book

    G7 C7 / F7 Bb7 / Eb7 Ab7 / Db7

    F7 Bb7 / Eb7 Ab7 / Db7 Gb7 / G7

    Nothing odd or difficult about the chords
    Nothing odd or difficult? For one thing the chords go by very swiftly, and there's no simple connection with the tonality of the piece as in the Rhythm and Topsy examples. The Rhythm bridge clearly gravitates towards the tonal center of the piece, and the Topsy bridge reaches a point where there is a very natural shortcut back to the tonic chord, via the dom7. Here the bridge circles out, in my terminology, and very far, then the whole sequence is repeated a whole step lower, but broken (somewhat weakly) by the G7 chord, thereby leading back to the cm tonality.

    Only highly accomplished musicians can handle this without getting lost or stiffening, and it takes near genius to create something beaiful (or even interesting*) over these chords. The written melody builds on sequenceing of a two bar motif and the cheap solution is to produce something similar in improvisation. I've listened to several versions and to my ears only Clifford Brown and Stan Getz are really successful. For a really silly version, listen to Barney Kessel (whom I otherwise admire).

    Personally I wouldn't even attempt it. I would compose my own bridge, in two keys, the second one step lower than the first, something ii-V-I(or i)-ish, perhaps. But then I could just as well create my own melody from beginning to end.

  9. #31

    Default Re: Those other chords?

    [QUOTE=OldMandoMan;1742159]


    -John Fogerty’s “Green River” is also only a three chorded but it’s not not I-IV-V. It certainly has a bluesy twist but it’s all I-#V-IV, rather unusual.

    The chords to Green River are E - C - A, which are I - bVI - IV, not #V.

  10. #32
    Registered User OldMandoMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    [QUOTE=David L;1742545]
    Quote Originally Posted by OldMandoMan View Post


    -John Fogerty’s “Green River” is also only a three chorded but it’s not not I-IV-V. It certainly has a bluesy twist but it’s all I-#V-IV, rather unusual.

    The chords to Green River are E - C - A, which are I - bVI - IV, not #V.
    I suppose it's "how many angles can one put on the head of pin" or "all a mater of how one is taught?" What makes the most sense to me is that we agree that it's a major C chord, and we know that VI naturally occurs as vi, a minor in a major key & V naturally occurs as a major in a major key, it makes more sense to label the C as a #V rather than a bVI. It is certainly meant to be a sort of Cajun Blues tune and the #V is a classic addition to many a blues turn around.

    I have to chuckle when I occasionally hear two players hotly disagreeing that "That's not a C6th! It's an Am7th! It usually has only to do with context & application.

  11. #33

    Default Re: Those other chords?

    [QUOTE=OldMandoMan;1742644]
    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post

    I suppose it's "how many angles can one put on the head of pin" or "all a mater of how one is taught?" What makes the most sense to me is that we agree that it's a major C chord, and we know that VI naturally occurs as vi, a minor in a major key & V naturally occurs as a major in a major key, it makes more sense to label the C as a #V rather than a bVI. It is certainly meant to be a sort of Cajun Blues tune and the #V is a classic addition to many a blues turn around.

    I have to chuckle when I occasionally hear two players hotly disagreeing that "That's not a C6th! It's an Am7th! It usually has only to do with context & application.
    In the key of E, the #V would be a B#, while the bVI would be C. When naming chords, the letter name changes with the Roman numeral. In E major, the sixth scale degree is C#, so C natural is a lowered sixth (bVI). The fifth scale degree is B. If you raise the B, you get B# (#V). Spelling is important in conveying your meaning: notice your "how many angles" (angels?)

  12. #34
    Registered User OldMandoMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    [QUOTE=David L;1742714]
    Quote Originally Posted by OldMandoMan View Post

    In the key of E, the #V would be a B#, while the bVI would be C. When naming chords, the letter name changes with the Roman numeral. In E major, the sixth scale degree is C#, so C natural is a lowered sixth (bVI). The fifth scale degree is B. If you raise the B, you get B# (#V). Spelling is important in conveying your meaning: notice your "how many angles" (angels?)
    You are quite correct and that's the designation I use on my Borrowed Chord chart in my guitar book. I just wasn't sure if enharmonic equivalents was a good topic to broach. Your spell checking is better than the average computer text editor which doesn't account for the syntax for angle vs angel let alone B# being the proper labeling for a #V in E major. Well done!

  13. #35
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    LOL, I thought you misspelled that on purpose, since you did it in both phrases, "I suppose it's "how many angles can one put on the head of pin" or "all a mater of how one is taught?"

    As though the misspellings were making a point that spelling doesn't matter or can be interpreted in different ways. Mater being Latin for "mother" who would be the one responsible for teaching a child, and "angle" being an English word using the same letters as "angel" - I considered that maybe you were just being clever with those, though the sense of it escaped me.
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  14. #36
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    Default Re: Those other chords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    LOL, I thought you misspelled that on purpose, since you did it in both phrases, "I suppose it's "how many angles can one put on the head of pin" or "all a mater of how one is taught?"
    .... I considered that maybe you were just being clever with those, though the sense of it escaped me.
    ... I should be so clever! Thanks for thinking I might be, but I'm only a bad speler & proof-reeder and when the spel checker can't determine it, I oftun miss it.

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