Glue for lose binding on finished instrument

[testore]

I have a very nice Guild guitar that wasn’t stored very well. It suffered some attic heat. The bulk of the binding has come loose. I’ve done small repairs like this using normal binding glue, but have always hated using it because the glue damages the finish. Not too big of a deal to retouch in small areas. But this guitar has the binding off on 75% of the area, top and back. I’m looking for a water based glue to adhere it to the guitar. Is there such a thing? Would titebond work?
Thanks
Gary

[Tavy]

Hide glue? It would certainly clean up easily.

[rcc56]

I have been using Wilsonart melamine glue for binding repairs. It is formulated to bond non-porous materials to wood, and is non-invasive to finishes. Its bonding strength is lower than the plastic cements and CA, so if the binding has shrunk, cut the binding and install a filler piece in a strategic spot so that the binding will have a stress-free fit without being stretched into place.

This glue is pretty much unknown and unproven in lutherie, but I have used it on a few jobs over a five year period. So far, none have come back because of glue failure.

[sunburst]

Usually, old bindings come off with bits of wood fibers still glued to them rather than coming off as clean plastic. I've used Titebond to re-glue plastic. It doesn't really stick to the plastic, but it does stick to the wood fibers that are clinging to the plastic, and the resulting bond is about as good as the original bond (that let go...).
In short, there are glues that will adhere OK to the plastic but not so well to wood, and will damage many finishes, and there are glues that will adhere well to wood, not damage finishes and not bind well to plastic. Not many glues that will adhere well to plastic and wood and will not damage finishes.

[testore]

Thanks everyone, that’s about what I was guessing.

[rcc56]

Go out on a limb and try the melamine glue. The worst that can happen is that it will come back. But I haven't had any returns so far. At least you won't mess up the finish.

If you do use it, you might want to scrape the binding ledge on the body clean before you glue.

If you use it, give us a report . . .

[Greg Mirken]

Unless I’m missing some secret ingredient, according to their data sheet it looks like garden-variety PVA glue to me.

[rcc56]

Cabinet makers routinely use the Wilsonart Lokweld melamine glue for bonding formica to wood for countertops.

It may be a form of PVA, but it is certainly neither a garden-variety white glue nor a yellow carpenter's glue.

Their technical data sheet describes it as an "acrylic emulsion for non-porous materials."
It is formulated for bonding non-porous materials to wood. Its bonding strength is moderate.
I'm no chemist, so I'll say no more.

I have used it occasionally for binding repairs for five years. So far, no failures have come to my attention.

I made a test board several months ago using a piece of ABS binding and a piece of scrap. I separated it just now with an X-acto chisel, and the bond broke in the wood below the surface, with a thin layer of wood still attached to the binding.

I am not saying that it is "the answer," but I believe it is worthy of further exploration for binding repairs on finished instruments. However, I think the plastic cements are a better choice for new construction.

I'd rather take the risk on the Wilsonart Lokweld melamine glue than risk messing up a finish with plastic cement or CA when it bleeds under a masked surface. I've been down that road too many times.

[Ward Elliott]

I appreciate you telling us about this. Although I've gotten pretty good at using thin superglue on loose binding there's always real potential for problems, so I'm gonna try the melamine glue on the next one I get. Got one coming in next week with binding issues (Martin guitar). Thanks, and I'll report back!

[rcc56]

Yes, please do report back.

There are other melamine glues available, but I do not know whether or not they have the same properties. The Wilsonart is the only one I have used.

I recommend scraping the binding channel clean. If the binding has shrunken, I do not recommend stretching it into shape-- I would instead cut the binding at a strategic place and install a filler piece.

I've seen a lot of Martins with loose bindings.

[pops1]

Bob, where do you buy this glue? I could check with the local lumber yard or where they sell counter tops. I have a guitar that the binding has come loose and would try it too.

[rcc56]

My friendly neighborhood cabinet maker pours some off for me every now and then.
The next time I speak to him, I'll ask him who his supplier is.

Wilsonart only shows a large quantity container on their website, but:
You can order a pint here: http://www.wurthwood.com/Wilsonart-L...Melamine-Glue/

I will again state that this product is pretty much unknown and unproven in lutherie.
But I would rather risk it than risk damaging a finish. If it doesn't hold, a repair can be re-done with plastic cement or CA.

I hope that whoever tries it will let us know their results.

[pops1]

The link doesn't seem to work, I will check around here. I live in the country, with small towns around and will check when I get to town.

[rcc56]

Durn computers.
Google "lokweld melamine glue."

[pops1]

That works, thanks Bob. Looks like Titebond also makes a melamine glue. That may be easier to find locally without the shipping costs.
Wonder how it compares.

[rcc56]

I don't know. It might be similar, it might be very different. The only way to find out is to try it.

I generally shy away from untested glues, but I've made an exception for binding repairs. I've just been so frustrated with the unpredictably of the results I've gotten when I use cement or CA that I'm willing to go out on a limb for an alternative.

Since binding repairs are not structural, the worst that can happen is a do-over.

I've done another test board, this time with hard maple and ABS binding. I'm going to let it dry for a few days before I try to separate it. If I'm not happy with the results, I'll let y'all know.