1921 Gibson F4 question

[trevor]

Is this possible?

"it has a pre 1922 neck with a truss-rod installed" and would that be original or installed later?

Thanks.

[William Smith]

It could be original or sent back for some work and then truss-rod was installed? Late 21 is when they started putting in the truss rods, what is the serial# of your F-4? Those early ones have the wider necks, and Gibson used everything in those days that's why you see truss rods and covers right through the inlays like on the double flowerpots for the F-4's and A-3 models.
I've seen some early ones that went back to even get say a black finish over the sunburst on F-4's? With Gibson in those years anything was possible.

[trevor]

Thanks William, serial number 69163.

[William Smith]

That # puts it toward the tail end of 1921, so yeah man that's an original rod IMHO, does yours have the Nickle TRC, also being a transitional F-4 does it have the double flowerpot/single pot with cover covering the bottom of the inlay? Also I bet the rod channel is cut through the inlay correct? I'd love to see some photos if you can post them? Does it have the darker type sunburst? As I believe your # is an unknown to the archives but falls in a batch with the sunburst.

[trevor]

Thanks William,

Yes it has the nickle TRC. I will try to get photos posted later today or tomorrow.

[Jim Hilburn]

I have a friend in Denver who has one just like that. Wide board and a nickle cover with some initials on it. It once belonged to Don Julen.

[rcc56]

According to some research I did earlier this year, the installation of truss rods in F-4's was a change which was instituted gradually.

The earliest example I have encountered is serial number 68386.
The truss rod appears to become standard with serial number 69909.

It is also worth noting that early examples with truss rods had the wider necks similar to those on mandolins made in the mid to late 1910's. Narrower necks were not introduced until after the truss rod became standard.

[trevor]

William, here are some images of the mandolin.

[trevor]

[William Smith]

Very nice transitional F-4, looks like it has the wider neck, truss rod channel cut through the inlay, I think I've seen this one somewhere before? Them early years I believe they still were using up old necks as they went thinner real soon after that one in 22. I like it, looks well played so I imagine sounds pretty sweet!

[MikeEdgerton]

That scroll wear does look familiar. I think it's been here before as well.

[slimt]

I have a 1921 as well. Bell over the lower flower pot .

[John Soper]

Great Mojo on that mandolin! Bet it sounds great!

[Jim Hilburn]

Sylvan just listed one they say is a '21 but has no trussrod.

[DHopkins]

I have an F-4 that is either 2015 or 2016. The serial number indicates 2016 but the work order number shows 2015. It has a truss rod but I believe it may have been worked on because it has rectangular fret markers rather than dots.

[rcc56]

I have an F-4 that is either 2015 or 2016. The serial number indicates 2016 but the work order number shows 2015. It has a truss rod but I believe it may have been worked on because it has rectangular fret markers rather than dots.

Assuming you meant 1915 or '16, the truss rod and block inlays would not be original to the mandolin.
I'd like to see pictures of that one, both front and back, just out of curiosity.

I'll also mention that the "unique original bone topped bridge" on the F-4 at Sylvan Music appears to be a 'teens style ebony bridge that has been re-topped.

[pops1]

Sylvan just listed one they say is a '21 but has no trussrod.

Truss rods started late '21 so it could be a '21 without a truss rod.

[DHopkins]

Assuming you meant 1915 or '16, the truss rod and block inlays would not be original to the mandolin.
I'd like to see pictures of that one, both front and back, just out of curiosity.

I'll also mention that the "unique original bone topped bridge" on the F-4 at Sylvan Music appears to be a 'teens style ebony bridge that has been re-topped.

My bad. It's 1915 or '16. As requested, here are photos. The blurry work order number inside is 3400.

[tim noble]

Sometimes serial numbers can be deceiving and its' more important to use the FON for the build date. I have 71080 and it is without a truss rod. It has the Cremona finish with FON 11548. According to Joe Spann "in this specific instance we have an F-4 that was constructed in early in 1922 (probably January), but not shipped until the fall of 1922". Interestingly 67423 11548 F4 and 67424 11548 F4 which have the same FON also have the Cremona finish and no truss rods. So it seems my F4 hung around the factory for some time until it got a serial number and final set up before being sold. It is likely that 69163 has a later build date and an original truss rod. Still not sure if these are 1921 or 1922 but tend to rely on Joe's take.
Tim

[William Smith]

I have an F-4 that is either 2015 or 2016. The serial number indicates 2016 but the work order number shows 2015. It has a truss rod but I believe it may have been worked on because it has rectangular fret markers rather than dots.

Yes yours was redone in the 60's by the looks of it-very neat, looks like the one Tom Tyson had?

[DHopkins]

Yes yours was redone in the 60's by the looks of it-very neat, looks like the one Tom Tyson had?

I was pretty sure it was redone. It sounds great and is easy to play. My main mandolin is a Breedlove but I use the Gibson every once in a while 'cause it's fun to play. It's not as loud as I would like. I paid $2K. It has the original case and a pick guard.

[William Smith]

I love the looks of yours-I do love pearl blocks! I think they are gorgeous on any mandolin! But I'm a geek and a fan of even the 70's Gibson F-5 inlays. Love it all, pearl and abalone work!

[rcc56]

The neck on Mr. Hopkins' mandolin bears a strong resemblance to the neck on a 1961 F-5 on the Intermountain website. Note the large peghead, the cut of the small curlicue on the peghead, the details of the logo and flowerpot inlay, and the wide black center stripe. It appears that the mandolin was re-necked at the Gibson factory sometime in the late '50's or early '60's.