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Thread: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    I have a new Eastman MD-315 (2.5 months old), and it does not stay in tune.

    I know lots of things can, and do, contribute to this... But I am thinking the main problem is probably the tuning mechanisms. I would like your opinions though. Is there a test/experiment that I can do to prove the tuning mechs are drifting from string tension?


    Let's assume the problem is the tuning mechs for a sec:

    Can I get some descent replacement tuning mechs that do not cost a fortune?

    What is it with Waverly tuning mechs? $400.00 - $600.00? Jeeezus, please!
    Frog...

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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Grover 309 tuners are great, especially for the money. Pricier might be Rubners. I haven't tried the new Schallers. But for less than $100, Grover 309's are very good. IMHO. Sometimes you can find them in the $50 range if you watch ebay and are not in a hurry.
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    Registered User Greg Mirken's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Do you always tune up to a pitch? Do the strings creak in the nut? Is the tailpiece secure and rigid?
    There are more common factors that are not the machines themselves. Do your strings always go flat? Sharp? More information might save you from an unnecessary tuner purchase [not to say that better machines wouldn't be an improvement].
    Shade Tree Fretted Instrument Repair, retired
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  4. #4
    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mirken View Post
    Do you always tune up to a pitch? Do the strings creak in the nut? Is the tailpiece secure and rigid?
    There are more common factors that are not the machines themselves. Do your strings always go flat? Sharp? More information might save you from an unnecessary tuner purchase [not to say that better machines wouldn't be an improvement].
    1.) Tune up to pitch: Yes, unless it I leave the AC on and it gets colder than usual. Then I have to tune down to pitch.
    2.) Do strings creak at nut: Nope
    3.) Is tailpiece secure and rigid: Yes. It is cast alloy.
    4.) Do strings always go flat. Usually, yes. Sharp if it has been too cold in room.

    I just ordered some golden age patina brass tuners, and a cast bronzed tailpiece from stewmac. These will make my mando look like I want, and hopefully take care of the tuning issue. Even if it does not...My mando will look 1920's oldish. Lol!
    Frog...

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    When buying F style mandolin tuners you need to know three things right off the bat. Are the tuners worm over or worm under. From the pictures I'm seeing it appears they are worm under. Next you need to know the post spacing's from center of string post to center of string post. The current standard is is .906 inches or 23.01 mm.

    The final thing to take into account is the length of the stem that the buttons are on. Depending on where the holes were drilled in the headstock some shorter tuners can run into problems hitting the side of the headstock. Grover tuners are shorter than Schaller and Gotoh tuners. These dimensions are freely available on different websites (like Stewmac.com).

    Beyond that you might end up having to change the bushings in the headstock and filling and redrilling screw holes to mount them to the headstock. Nothing is impossible but barring another member telling you that they have done a change on this model and the replacement tuners dropped right in you need to be aware of what can happen.

    I'd definitely check the nut slots first. Then take a look at the late Paul Hostetter's tuner maintenance site to make sure they are adjusted correctly
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    If you are tuning down because of the AC do you go below pitch and then up to pitch, if not they will go flat with any tuner.
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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    When buying F style mandolin tuners you need to know three things right off the bat. Are the tuners worm over or worm under. From the pictures I'm seeing it appears they are worm under. Next you need to know the post spacing's from center of string post to center of string post. The current standard is is .906 inches or 23.01 mm.

    The final thing to take into account is the length of the stem that the buttons are on. Depending on where the holes were drilled in the headstock some shorter tuners can run into problems hitting the side of the headstock. Grover tuners are shorter than Schaller and Gotoh tuners. These dimensions are freely available on different websites (like Stewmac.com).

    Beyond that you might end up having to change the bushings in the headstock and filling and redrilling screw holes to mount them to the headstock. Nothing is impossible but barring another member telling you that they have done a change on this model and the replacement tuners dropped right in you need to be aware of what can happen.

    I'd definitely check the nut slots first. Then take a look at the late Paul Hostetter's tuner maintenance site to make sure they are adjusted correctly
    I whipped out my handy dandy ruler and the Eastman post holes are right at 23.0xmm. The overall length of the Eastman base plate is actually about 2.225mm longer than the Golden Age tuners, but the old holes will still be covered by the new base plates. The overall width of the base Eastman plates are within 1.225mm of the width of the Golden Age tuners.

    I think I will have to fill the middle mounting screw holes because I pretty sure the new holes will be right on the edge of the old ones.

    Now... I am saying all of this BEFORE receiving the parts and actually installing them on my Mando.
    Frog...

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Tuning? Really!
    It’s an ongoing struggle, make sure your nut is reasonably lubed(#2pencil) and there isn’t anything weird going on with top fluctuations, and just remember “Mandolin is Italian for “out of tune! ””
    Proper lubrication of machines is oft overlooked, they can grind and cause issues.
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    Registered User Greg Mirken's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    If you need to tune a string that's sharp, it is critical that you tune below the pitch you're aiming for and come up to it, so that the gear on the button shaft supports the string shaft. Hopefully that's your only problem!
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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mirken View Post
    If you need to tune a string that's sharp, it is critical that you tune below the pitch you're aiming for and come up to it, so that the gear on the button shaft supports the string shaft. Hopefully that's your only problem!
    I would never tune above to get below. I am not continuously having to tune up. That would not be good. I would think something would be coming undone, and making all kinds of crackling noises that would cause me to go into a major OCD panic mode!

    Edit:

    I mean I do have to continuously tune up, usually. But I do not hear crackling wood, or see anything coming undone.
    Frog...

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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    It is my belief that tuners are the least likely cause of tuning issues. Think about a company like Eastman. Do you believe they really make a decision to put tuners that don't work on their instruments? They decide to put tuners that look cheap, and aren't as smooth on their entry level instruments, but they do work. Likely the nut slots are causing any issues.
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  14. #12
    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    It is my belief that tuners are the least likely cause of tuning issues. Think about a company like Eastman. Do you believe they really make a decision to put tuners that don't work on their instruments? They decide to put tuners that look cheap, and aren't as smooth on their entry level instruments, but they do work. Likely the nut slots are causing any issues.
    Sticking nut slots? OK. I am going to check/lube now. Thx, Br!ck.
    Frog...

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    Registered User Walt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Froglips View Post
    I would never tune above to get below. I am not continuously having to tune up. That would not be good. I would think something would be coming undone, and making all kinds of crackling noises that would cause me to go into a major OCD panic mode!

    Edit:

    I mean I do have to continuously tune up, usually. But I do not hear crackling wood, or see anything coming undone.
    Just to make sure you get the point Greg is making, here’s an example:

    Let’s say you want to tune to G, but the note is currently G#. If you just loosen the string until you hit the G note, then it will drift out of tune later. What you need to do is loosen the string until you are below the target note, then tighten back up to the target note. For example, if you’re at G#, you should tune down to F# then tighten back up to G. You should always finish tuning by tightening the string, never by loosening the string.

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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Just to make sure you get the point Greg is making, here’s an example:

    Let’s say you want to tune to G, but the note is currently G#. If you just loosen the string until you hit the G note, then it will drift out of tune later. What you need to do is loosen the string until you are below the target note, then tighten back up to the target note. For example, if you’re at G#, you should tune down to F# then tighten back up to G. You should always finish tuning by tightening the string, never by loosening the string.
    (Holmer Simpson Voice): DOH! ... OK. I understand now. Thanks, Walt. Will do!
    Frog...

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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Tuning? Really!
    and just remember “Mandolin is Italian for “out of tune!
    Now, I do not care what anyone says... That is down right funny right there.
    Frog...

    It's not how you pick your nose ... It's where you put the booger!

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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    It is my belief that tuners are the least likely cause of tuning issues.
    This^^ IME, the tuning machines are almost never the problem. Usually, the nut slots are too tight or are binding at the back edge where the angle changes. Changing them for aesthetic considerations is perfectly fine, but I wouldn't expect them to work any better.
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    Registered User Froglips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by onassis View Post
    This^^ IME, the tuning machines are almost never the problem. Usually, the nut slots are too tight or are binding at the back edge where the angle changes. Changing them for aesthetic considerations is perfectly fine, but I wouldn't expect them to work any better.
    For the Record:

    Yep! Timbofood, and yourself, were ultimately correct! The problem was tight nut slots. I used a #2 Pencil as for lube as, Timbofood, suggested... As well as opened the slots up ever-so slightly with the hand dandy nut cutting tool set I got from StewMac many, many, years ago for my POS Epiphone mando.

    Edit:

    But as everything else... I still have to trick out my rig. No matter the risk/humiliation!
    Frog...

    It's not how you pick your nose ... It's where you put the booger!

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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Grover 309's can be had on eBay for about $50 give or take and they are the go to tuner I have used on several mandolins including an Eastman 315. They are great and have a lifetime warranty, just not sure who's life time that is.

  24. #19

    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Now that you have a functioning mandolin, you can change your tuners because you want smoother action on them.
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Just understanding the nature of wood and metal as things that change based in their surrounding climate, I just accept that every time I pull my instrument out of its case, I'm going to have to tune it. Changes in humidity make the wood expand or contract, and changes in temp make the strings expand and contract. That's why it's always sharp when it's very humid OR when the AC is on full blast, or if it's hot and dry it will be flat.

    While I know that most cases aren't completely sealed from the surrounding climate, they do keep the instrument out of it to some degree. To me it makes sense that when you pull the instrument out of the case it will need some time to acclimate to the room before it settles. So for that reason, I either will open my case some time before I expect to tune up and play, or just accept that if I tune it up when I pull it out of the case I will have to tune up again a little while later... more often the second of those 2 options.

    Unless you tune up and then it's out again in a few minutes, IMO tuning just a part of playing.
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  26. #21

    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Preston tuners stay in tune. I'm talking about a 9-string Waldzither, come back months later, it's pretty much in tune.
    I just built my son a headless travel guitar. He's 8, knocks it around, plus we checked it in a suitcase all the way to Ireland. I tuned it two or three times the whole month-long trip, that's 2 plane flights, 8 different hotels/apartments, three different cars, a couple busses.
    I think my point is that the simpler the system is, the more likely it is to stay in tune.

    Now... when they figure out how to get the EverTune system for mandolin, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested!

  27. #22
    Registered User Zigeuner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we talk about tuning mechanisms for a sec?

    Quote Originally Posted by HonketyHank View Post
    Grover 309 tuners are great, especially for the money. Pricier might be Rubners. I haven't tried the new Schallers. But for less than $100, Grover 309's are very good. IMHO. Sometimes you can find them in the $50 range if you watch ebay and are not in a hurry.
    I certainly agree. My new Rhodes Mandolin came with nickel-plated Grover 309s. They have the "worm under" design and the instrument stays nicely in tune.
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