cites rules on older instruments

[peter.coombe]

[Edit] P.S. It is worth mentioning that ebony (Diospyros spp., populations of Madagascar only) is also included as a CITES Appendix II restricted-trade species. Not much is said about it, but it's there. I have no idea how a country's agent would be able to tell by looking at an instrument if it has ebony from Madagascar or not.

Well you can't tell the difference. But that is not the point. For Ebony, unlike Dalbergia species (rosewoods), finished instruments are exempt so they don't need to tell the difference. Appendix II in most or all cases except the rosewoods, finished items are exempt. The aim is to control export from the country of origin.

[Bob Buckingham]

I know Bubinga is restricted and it, as I understand it, is not technically a rosewood.

[dhergert]

... For Ebony, unlike Dalbergia species (rosewoods), finished instruments are exempt so they don't need to tell the difference. ...

Ahhh, thank you Peter... I had seen some annotations related to the form that many species were restricted in, but didn't make the connection related to the Dalbergia species (rosewoods) and finished instruments. I really appreciate the clarification!!

[Simon DS]

Well you can't tell the difference. But that is not the point. For Ebony, unlike Dalbergia species (rosewoods), finished instruments are exempt so they don't need to tell the difference. Appendix II in most or all cases except the rosewoods, finished items are exempt. The aim is to control export from the country of origin.

Thanks Peter, so finished items are exempt.
Do you have a link to the documentation or sources for that?

[Zigeuner]

That used to be the case, but currently ALL rosewood species are listed as of Jan 2017.

Officially you would need proof that the instrument pre-dates the ban, plus special shipping via a designated port.

Personally I wouldn't ship anything too valuable if there is any rosewood in it at all these days - the paperwork is possible, but likely to take a day or two of your time especially if you don't know what you're doing. As most of us don't, we don't ship unless they're rosewood (and MOP for the US) free. For a low value instrument, you could ship and hope, and 99+% will currently slip through unnoticed.

That's right. Nowadays, it's just not wise to ship anything with rosewood (or ivory). I have several Martin guitars built with Brazilian Rosewood. I wouldn't dare ship them anywhere out of the US even though they are all more than 50 years old and I can prove their age.

As you say, East Indian Rosewood has now been added to the list so that would encompass many newer instruments not previously restricted. Its just not worth the risk to ship them.

[dhergert]

Thanks Peter, so finished items are exempt.
Do you have a link to the documentation or sources for that?

To be clear, finished products are exempt or the non-rosewood species like ebony.

[peter.coombe]

To be clear, finished products are exempt or the non-rosewood species like ebony.

The non rosewood species that are listed in Appendix II such as Madagascar Ebony and Honduras or Brazilian Mahogany are exempt in finished items. Rosewood is not exempt.

For more information go to the CITES web site. All the information is there, although due to the sheer number of species listed will take a bit of sifting through.

[nicanite]

just stumbled on this: NAMM information on upcoming CITES meeting in August 2019: https://www.namm.org/ISSUES-AND-ADVO...MPLIANCE/CITES
The proposal supported by music industry stakeholders is listed under "Dalbergia - Statement of Principles, Musical Instruments and Appendix II Annotation #15" -- worth a read.
TLDR: They want to exempt finished musical instruments.

[stevo58]

Please note that although the regulations may be a pain for musicians, there are good reasons for them. Gangs would illegally clear-cut rosewood growths for use in furniture, popular in Asia. They mislabel the wood as a less endangered variant and ship it. The new regulations were urgently needed to put a stop to these practices, or at least reduce as much as possible, before all species ended up in appendix 1. Yes the instrument industry is small potatoes in comparison, but they are addressing this now. Sometimes it is necessary to act immediately, and perhaps drastically, to prevent a greater disaster. You can always fine-tune after the emergency is over. The inconvenience for musicians is insignificant in comparison to the extinction of rosewood species.

Steven