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Thread: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

  1. #251
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    At the least ,this Mark or who ever he is could wear a Suit and be a little more professional And keep the politics away from the public. To be honest his arrogance just turns me right off.

  2. #252

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I'm willing to bet that they are making and selling all the mandolins people want to buy. Dealers stock what they can sell.

    Contrast that to how many Collings mandolins are stocked at various dealers around the country.

    But man, nothing to me sounds like a Gibson, and if that sound is what you want, that is what you will have to buy.

    I would have a hard time laying out $5K or more and feeling bad about it. Mandolins have not been affected because KKR executives don't read down that far in the potential profit reports.
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  3. #253

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I think to posit that "public opinion" (as in the instrument buying world "out there") would correspond to the opinions of a dozen or so members of the Mandolin Cafe forum is a bit of a stretch?
    It's not just MandolinCafe. FWIW, 30 seconds on Google brought up these:

    • 34 pages of many negative comments at TheGearPage.net.

    • Various expressions including some discontent (I didn't read all of it to determine what percentage is 'for' vs 'against') on 15 pages at TalkBass.com

    • FWIW, tons of anti-Gibson comments underneath various YouTube videos (yeah, I know, but they can't all be foreign bots). For example, the comments below this guitar builder's YouTube video.

    • The first 15 pages at MetalGuitarist.org (caution: language). After page 15 it looks like they sort of get distracted talking about other stuff.

    Of course there are also the occasional posts in defense of Gibson.

    But something good has already come of this - some comedy! A (IMO) fun little parody video - caution, colorful language:


    (or direct link - video entitled "Play Authentic - Or Else!" from SpectreSoundStudios)

    For those with video-challenged gadgets, here are a couple of family-friendly quotes (fair use) from the above parody, at 5:10 and 0:22 and 2:23 respectively:

    "We'll have to sue everyone making *these* guitars, of course [holds up guitar with no headstock], because, well, had they used the headstock, we are 100-percent convinced it would have infringed on our copyright, of Bully Guitars. They would have used the Bully Guitars headstock. So therefore, every headless guitar manufacturer, watch out, we're coming for you!"

    And:

    Person 1: "We've been in the guitar-building business since 1435, and we've innovated all that time, right up until today. We invented the guitar, the strings, the headstock, the tuners, the frets."
    Person 2: "We did butter too!"
    Person 1: "We did butter, yes! And shoelaces. And what we want to say is that, we're not happy with the situation right now. I mean, like, look at all this, all these guitars, copying *our* designs, our dreams, our hopes. And building them BETTER than we can, at a lower price. [pounds table] That's just not fair!"
    Person 2: "It's just wrong!" ...
    "And they're pretty, too!"

    Person 1: "They're *very* pretty, and they're *very* good." ...
    "How dare they! We're gonna sue them. 'Cause we're Bully Guitars USA and we've had it with people building better guitars than we can, for less money." ...
    "Instead of building quality guitars at a reasonable price, we're just gonna bully them right out of business..."

    Person 2: "We got the lawyers, we got the money, these small builders have no [bleep] chance, so why..."
    Person 1: "We should just crush them."

    Person 1: "Didn't we invent the tobacco burst?" ...
    Person 2: "We invented tobacco, actually. We could sue anyone smoking."
    Person 1: "Hmm, not a bad idea!"
    Person 2: "I think we should!"
    Person 1: "We really need the money, of course."

    And at 2:38 the parody folk invent the word "innovised" !

    Person 2: "I just made up this word, anyone using the word 'innovized' now, we're gonna sue you."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I'd say 99.99% of instrument buyers will never hear of this discussion nor while they hear or probably care about the Gibson legal actions either? My opinion of course.
    Well, y'know, I don't do Facebook or Twitter etc, but even without that, word travels fast nowadays for those who look at stuff online once in a while. I would be skeptical that Gibson would be able to keep any of this under wraps for very long... at least for musicians (Gibson's target audience, presumably).

    Also, I realize that people who are discontent or 'anti' something or other, can often be more vocal and more likely go on the internet and make public posts about it.

    On the other hand, for every person who complains about a particular thing, there are often lots of other people who think the same thing but haven't bothered to express themselves publicly.

    So, who knows. But, just from that quick Google search, the discontent seems to be coming from more than just some mandolin folks here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    There is such a thing as seduction into persuasion, when someone absorbs pseudo-logic others have told him and agressively defends it.
    Good point. (I didn't realize there was a name for it.) Sometimes when people have already made up their minds that they like or dislike something, no amount of additional info will sway their opinion one way or the other.

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  5. #254
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Granted, you find many of those stylistic elements in furniture of the era as well. It just shows that re-use of design has been and is still going on all the time. Under these circumstances, doing what is normal and then holding fast to it
    , saying "that's mine, stay off ye villains" is no longer normal, like claiming intellectual ownership of a seashell you found on the beach.
    One more thing: building design on what people already know is the safer business concept. People want to be reminded of a happier past, things they can relate to. Breaking away from that with a radical new design takes courage and conviction.

    I remember the time when Steinberger came out with his headless bass - almost everybody went "Yuch!" It looked too alien, too decapitated, too shocking, so cool it froze your heart. Steinberger survived by the odd lucky chance that just a sufficient number of musicians were radical enough themselves to adopt this, but it never really went mainstream.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  6. #255
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    I didn't realize there was a name for it.
    I just innovised it - and you guess the rest
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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  8. #256

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    My dreams have come true!

    Christmas has come early and now all you crusty crusty get off my lawn whole lotta' nuthn' mandolin nerds will stop asking me to build $#!t brown 1923 Gibson F5 clones!


  9. #257
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Just for the record can anyone supply the dates when Hutto, Wood, Duff, Gilchrist, Carlson, and others who made higher end F-5s got started with a commercial product available to the mandolin community?
    Nugget F5 #1 was made in 1972.

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  11. #258
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    It's not just MandolinCafe. FWIW, 30 seconds on Google brought up these:

    • 34 pages of many negative comments at TheGearPage.net.

    • Various expressions including some discontent (I didn't read all of it to determine what percentage is 'for' vs 'against') on 15 pages at TalkBass.com

    • FWIW, tons of anti-Gibson comments underneath various YouTube videos (yeah, I know, but they can't all be foreign bots). For example, the comments below this guitar builder's YouTube video.

    • The first 15 pages at MetalGuitarist.org (caution: language). After page 15 it looks like they sort of get distracted talking about other stuff.

    Of course there are also the occasional posts in defense of Gibson.

    But something good has already come of this - some comedy! A (IMO) fun little parody video - caution, colorful language:


    (or direct link - video entitled "Play Authentic - Or Else!" from SpectreSoundStudios)

    For those with video-challenged gadgets, here are a couple of family-friendly quotes (fair use) from the above parody, at 5:10 and 0:22 and 2:23 respectively:

    "We'll have to sue everyone making *these* guitars, of course [holds up guitar with no headstock], because, well, had they used the headstock, we are 100-percent convinced it would have infringed on our copyright, of Bully Guitars. They would have used the Bully Guitars headstock. So therefore, every headless guitar manufacturer, watch out, we're coming for you!"

    And:

    Person 1: "We've been in the guitar-building business since 1435, and we've innovated all that time, right up until today. We invented the guitar, the strings, the headstock, the tuners, the frets."
    Person 2: "We did butter too!"
    Person 1: "We did butter, yes! And shoelaces. And what we want to say is that, we're not happy with the situation right now. I mean, like, look at all this, all these guitars, copying *our* designs, our dreams, our hopes. And building them BETTER than we can, at a lower price. [pounds table] That's just not fair!"
    Person 2: "It's just wrong!" ...
    "And they're pretty, too!"

    Person 1: "They're *very* pretty, and they're *very* good." ...
    "How dare they! We're gonna sue them. 'Cause we're Bully Guitars USA and we've had it with people building better guitars than we can, for less money." ...
    "Instead of building quality guitars at a reasonable price, we're just gonna bully them right out of business..."

    Person 2: "We got the lawyers, we got the money, these small builders have no [bleep] chance, so why..."
    Person 1: "We should just crush them."

    Person 1: "Didn't we invent the tobacco burst?" ...
    Person 2: "We invented tobacco, actually. We could sue anyone smoking."
    Person 1: "Hmm, not a bad idea!"
    Person 2: "I think we should!"
    Person 1: "We really need the money, of course."

    And at 2:38 the parody folk invent the word "innovised" !

    Person 2: "I just made up this word, anyone using the word 'innovized' now, we're gonna sue you."




    Well, y'know, I don't do Facebook or Twitter etc, but even without that, word travels fast nowadays for those who look at stuff online once in a while. I would be skeptical that Gibson would be able to keep any of this under wraps for very long... at least for musicians (Gibson's target audience, presumably).

    Also, I realize that people who are discontent or 'anti' something or other, can often be more vocal and more likely go on the internet and make public posts about it.

    On the other hand, for every person who complains about a particular thing, there are often lots of other people who think the same thing but haven't bothered to express themselves publicly.

    So, who knows. But, just from that quick Google search, the discontent seems to be coming from more than just some mandolin folks here.



    Good point. (I didn't realize there was a name for it.) Sometimes when people have already made up their minds that they like or dislike something, no amount of additional info will sway their opinion one way or the other.
    You've put together an list of impressive comments/commenters on this matter.

    Still I wonder if that means that a significant segment of the buying public are as involved or vocal as individuals who spend time on forums like this one or those others that you highlighted?

    And keep in mind there are supporters as well as detractors on all of these forums so it is not everyone who comments is an individual who is upset with Gibson?

    We'll just have to see how it shakes out. I still doubt all of this will have much to do with mandolins?

    Right now Gibson has limited capacity for building mandolins and has been pointed out in another post in this string there is no glut of new Gibson mandolins. They are essentially selling all the mandolins that they can make?

    Thankfully Gibson is keeping its hand in the high-end mandolin making business but it is a very small part of its overall business plan.
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  12. #259
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sanderson View Post
    Nugget F5 #1 was made in 1972.
    Thanks for the information!

    Was it inlaid as a "Nugget" or as a "Gibson"? Does anyone have an image of one of these very early Nugget F-5s?

    I bought an F-2 in 1973 and recall being interested in an F-5 about the same time. But back then there was little information -- all we had mostly was word-of-mouth and rumors. I only knew vaguely about Loar story back then.

    I did know there were individuals building copy F-5s but i think Randy Wood was the only name I knew about who was making them.

    Those were the Dark Ages.
    Bernie
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  13. #260

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I had never heard the story that Gibson threatened Flatiron --i.e. to cease and desist? I also thought the purchase was to get volume production as Gibson had only three individuals in-house who could make the F-5L. But there are individuals on this forum who would know that for sure what happened back then. Steve Carlson has commented several times on this forum including a lot of details on how they got started with Flatiron but I do not recall him mentioning any coercion?
    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Someone posted a link to an article saying that Gibson threatened Flatiron before they bought them out. I had not heard that before. I always assumed that Gibson bought them to eliminate the competition, and to get the factory and some of the workers.
    I guess I've been around the M.I business side of things so long that I thought the Gibson/Flatiron story was just common knowledge. I know I've heard it first hand a number of time...Gibson and this way of this sort of business has been going on for as long as I can remember. I've been involved far more in the guitar world but word gets around easy about these things
    Anyways, I did post the article which again can be read here: https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...ilder-1?page=2
    But I also mentioned that I was sure I'd seen a video of Ren Ferguson speaking on it. It took me a bit to find it again but here you go folks. Skip to the 7min mark and Ren reminisces about that mid- 80's NAMM where Steve set out to find Henry and suggest to him that Flatiron should be making mando's for Gibson as an OEM manufacturer because they're better at it than Gibson and Henry just said "no, I think I'll put you out of business instead." Shortly after came the cease and desist. Flatiron had to turn to making banjos which set out Stanley Jay from Mandolin Brothers, after sales of Mando's tanked, to talk Henry into buying Flatiron and from that the Bozeman facility came into existence.
    From the horses mouth and I guess mystery solved: https://uk-videos.info/watch/09Kf6jy...ld-part-1.html
    I also posted about a rather recent lawsuit they set out on Hamer. Interestingly enough, Hamer and Gibson did have a long standing agreement for Hamer to use the respective shapes they were sued over in 2017 as Hamer brought them out from the dead. The article about that can be read here: http://www.musicinstrumentnews.co.uk...rademark-wars/
    And I've seen it asked once or twice and I know the Mandolin Cafe Admin has made note of the correct answer and that is YES, Gibson has sent letters out to small scale shops and builders (guitar and mandolin). I have seen them myself.

    Also, I was at Sweetwaters Gearfest this past week. This is certainly a topic among the public and the industry and in general there was just a weird vibe surrounding the Gibson tent...

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  15. #261
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    To answer Bernie's question about Flatirons, the carved models had been available for several years before Gibson bought them in May of 1987. The majority of them were A models.....
    Thanks for that information. So Flatirons must have come onto the market around 1983 - 84 time frame then. I had always assumed that they came onto the market before the F-5L. Not sure why I thought that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    ....I remember the state of the mandolin market in the '80's. I was playing a Strad-o-lin in those days. Most of the new mandolins we saw were Asian made: Alvarez, Epiphone, Washburn, etc. The Flatirons and the Unicorns were a breath of fresh air when they appeared. They were considerably better than the Asian instruments. The first F-5L that I saw was, in my opinion, not much better than some of the Asian mandolins.
    The first mandolin I bought was an Alvarez round hole mandolin -- would have been like late 1972. It was plenty loud but not too much tone? Then someone offered me a 1963 Gibson A-40 for $200 and I bought it -- so I had a Gibson -- better tone but not so much volume.

    But only a year later I got a chance to buy a 1919 F-2 for only $275 and after that I had no more need for more mandolins so I did not pay too much attention to the market for maybe 10 years

    My impression of the F-5L was much different. I was really taken with it I brought in my F-2 to compare back to back and decided that it was time that I added it to my collection. Problem was I decided to think about it for a couple of days and when I came back it was gone.


    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Around 1987, somebody stuck a really good 'teens A-4 in my hands and a light went on-- I heard how good an old Gibson could sound. I went to Gruhn's and bought an F-4 for $1600. Of the 8 or 10 old Gibsons George had in the shop that day, it was the best one by far. Later, I picked up a good A-4, and H-2, and a Lyon & Healy style B. I cut quite a few tracks with those mandolins. I still have the three Gibsons.
    So you have some great oval hole Gibson mandolins -- I must have had more than dozen of those Gibson ovals mandolins, mandolas and mandocellos pass through my hands. Now I don't have any!


    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    This lawsuit against Dean is going to be a test case for Gibson. If they win, it seems likely that they will file other suits. If they lose, they might or might not give up on future suits. The current management does not seem to be very interested in public opinion. They do appear to want more operating capital, so only time will tell.
    Kind of what I think also. Actually I am kind of surprised they are doing it because even if they win will they really gain much? Of course they won't get more operating capital in the long term if they actually do lose public favor of the instrument buying public? Some on here claim that is what will happen -- we'll have to see...
    Bernie
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  16. #262
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann Winchester View Post
    I guess I've been around the M.I business side of things so long that I thought the Gibson/Flatiron story was just common knowledge. I know I've heard it first hand a number of time...Gibson and this way of this sort of business has been going on for as long as I can remember. I've been involved far more in the guitar world but word gets around easy about these things
    Anyways, I did post the article which again can be read here: https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...ilder-1?page=2
    But I also mentioned that I was sure I'd seen a video of Ren Ferguson speaking on it. It took me a bit to find it again but here you go folks. Skip to the 7min mark and Ren reminisces about that mid- 80's NAMM where Steve set out to find Henry and suggest to him that Flatiron should be making mando's for Gibson as an OEM manufacturer because they're better at it than Gibson and Henry just said "no, I think I'll put you out of business instead." Shortly after came the cease and desist. Flatiron had to turn to making banjos which set out Stanley Jay from Mandolin Brothers, after sales of Mando's tanked, to talk Henry into buying Flatiron and from that the Bozeman facility came into existence.
    From the horses mouth and I guess mystery solved: https://uk-videos.info/watch/09Kf6jy...ld-part-1.html
    I also posted about a rather recent lawsuit they set out on Hamer. Interestingly enough, Hamer and Gibson did have a long standing agreement for Hamer to use the respective shapes they were sued over in 2017 as Hamer brought them out from the dead. The article about that can be read here: http://www.musicinstrumentnews.co.uk...rademark-wars/
    And I've seen it asked once or twice and I know the Mandolin Cafe Admin has made note of the correct answer and that is YES, Gibson has sent letters out to small scale shops and builders (guitar and mandolin). I have seen them myself.

    Also, I was at Sweetwaters Gearfest this past week. This is certainly a topic among the public and the industry and in general there was just a weird vibe surrounding the Gibson tent...
    What a treasure trove of information Hermann! That article on Ren Fergueson is amazing -- i always wanted to know the story of the those "Museum" J-200 series.

    It sounds like Gibson did make a claim on the F-5 profile in 1986 if John Southern's article is correct? Quoting from the article:

    "Three months after that fateful meeting, Carlson finally received a cease and desist order from Gibson’s lawyers, claiming that Flatiron had compromised the “silhouette” of the company’s F-5 mandolin. It was a stunning blow to the company; crippled by not being able to make F-5 mandolins, Flatiron quickly found itself in financial trouble."

    One question Hermann. In those letters sent out to small guitar and mandolin shops what was the issue and what was threatened. Do you have any details about these letters you can share?
    Bernie
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  17. #263
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    The current state of supply for new Gibson mandolins:

    Morgan Music advertises one F-9 in stock.
    The Mandolin Store advertises a total of perhaps 9 or 10 total: 1 each of the F-9, 1 F-5G "Black Night", 4 F-5 "customs" with varying appointments, more than one Fern, and 1 Master Model.
    Guitar Center/Musician's Friend shows 2 F-9's in stock. Guitar Center also shows 2 F-5G's in stock while Musician's Friend does not; this is a little odd since they are the same company.

    That's a total of between 12 and 15 new instruments total between the 3 existing authorized mandolin dealers. They're don't seem very interested in making and selling mandolins at this time.
    FYI your leaving something out..the mandolin store has 18 Gibson''s on their website,,of which 10 are sold/out of stock and only 8 various models left...

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  19. #264
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Don't forget "humbucker!" Maybe I should patent "pick" or "strings" before Gibson grabs it...
    1999 Buckeye #18 (Bucky)
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  20. #265

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    What a treasure trove of information Hermann! That article on Ren Fergueson is amazing -- i always wanted to know the story of the those "Museum" J-200 series.

    It sounds like Gibson did make a claim on the F-5 profile if John Southern's article is correct? Quoting from the article:

    "Three months after that fateful meeting, Carlson finally received a cease and desist order from Gibson’s lawyers, claiming that Flatiron had compromised the “silhouette” of the company’s F-5 mandolin. It was a stunning blow to the company; crippled by not being able to make F-5 mandolins, Flatiron quickly found itself in financial trouble."

    One question Hermann. In those letters sent out to small guitar and mandolin shops what was the issue and what was threatened. Do you have any details about these letters you can share?
    Hi Bernie,

    In those days, as I suppose these days as well; a letter as such from a large scale business to a small scale business can be frightening to say the least. I don't know that Gibson has ever owned (the trademark) the body shape of the F style (they certainly don't at this time) and I imagine it was all just a huff and puff scare tactic back in the day to Flatiron. Note that while they have the trademark for the fern and flowerpot they do not have a right to the headstock design alone. It would be important to note that on the same date of application for the fern/flowerpot (Jan. 24, 2014) they also applied for rights to the entire f-style mandolin body shape which they were refused and later abandoned on Aug. 12, 2015 some months after they won the fern/flowerpot request.

    As I mentioned early on; I don't want to see Gibson, as an iconic partner to American music, go away (as it seems they hope their competition does). But I do hope the little guy wins victory in this one. Personally; I have not seen that Gibson production has made a good enough improvement on their recent instruments and I think they should be focused first on that and making them more affordable.

    - EDIT - I'm not at liberty to give particulars on the letters I've seen only to confirm they have been sent. Gibson also reached out to their dealer base about their stance against Dean as I have also seen this document; it was before the video and public announcements of the past couple of weeks. This round of C&D etc. by Gibson has been on going for a few months now.
    Last edited by Hermann Winchester; Jun-24-2019 at 9:02am.

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  22. #266
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I would guess that Dennis is probably selling more Gibson mandolins than any other single dealer and most likely will continue to do so. Guitar Center/Musicians Friend I would assume sells a whole lot of Gibson and Epiphone guitars and the mandolins just kind of come along with it. I'm pretty sure they aren't that interested in that portion of the market. Most of the other random Gibson dealers are probably selling a few Gibson mandolins now and again but mostly guitars and those are probably skewed towards electrics. The mandolin division isn't huge but they'll sell everything they make. The assumption that this will put Gibson under is probably premature. Historically Gibson has angered a large portion of the industry and public one way or another over the years. There was a time that we were constantly shutting down Gibson bashing threads because they got out of hand. That doesn't mean I agree with anything they are doing. I'm guessing the folks at Elderly aren't too worried about any of this. They've existed and prospered for a long time now without new Gibson instruments.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    11 pages, 267 posts (including this), most of which bring up some interesting points but, my favorite was from (I think) Bernie, “ The dozen or two folks here probably will not have much impact.” To paraphrase, sorry, I don’t want to go back and dig out the actual quote but, I have laundry to do.
    That sentiment is a perfect example of how popular opinion needs to be considered. The company will not be terribly swayed by the opinions voiced on this forum but, I think there is probably someone looking at this and trying to sort through it and wondering how the rest of the musical instrument buying community actually feels.
    We, as Mandolin buyers, or builders represent a pretty small part of the whole picture, with respect to the numbers of guitars electric or acoustic that the company produces.
    I have a feeling this will not end in collapse of the fine F-5/ A5... instrument builders business but, may impact some of the PAC rim production of large numbers of instruments. Only time and the judicial process will provide the answer.
    Threats and even more Menacing threats will scare some but most likely they just make the company look like a bully.

    Thanks Mike for the correction to Stan Rendell, Rendell Wall is, or was, part of the Heritage company development. I don’t know if he’s still there or if he’s been consumed but the Plazacorp giant that let a dozen well skilled employees go three years before possible retirement. That’s strangely similar to what happened when Norlin came in and moved things away from “Home”.
    I apologize for the obscure tangent that went off to.
    I’m not buying a Gibson product so, that’s the only vote that matters when it comes to bottom line.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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  26. #268
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann Winchester View Post
    - EDIT - I'm not at liberty to give particulars on the letters I've seen only to confirm they have been sent. Gibson also reached out to their dealer base about their stance against Dean as I have also seen this document; it was before the video and public announcements of the past couple of weeks. This round of C&D etc. by Gibson has been on going for a few months now.
    Ditto.

    What I can share in part--there's always more--is that Gibson's law firm requested a substantial amount of money (four figures) for a fairly old mandolin finished more than a decade prior to when a trademark was filed and had not yet been adjudicated. In essence, claiming retroactive damage back years, even decades. Is that poor research on the part of the party that filed the claim, an overly aggressive strategy being tested, or something else? Only the people writing and sending those documents know.

    When I previously stated some of the requests were "eye popping," this was one of the references, but not the only one.
    Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Jun-24-2019 at 10:13am.

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  28. #269
    Registered User Tom Sanderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Thanks for the information!

    Was it inlaid as a "Nugget" or as a "Gibson"? Does anyone have an image of one of these very early Nugget F-5s?

    I bought an F-2 in 1973 and recall being interested in an F-5 about the same time. But back then there was little information -- all we had mostly was word-of-mouth and rumors. I only knew vaguely about Loar story back then.

    I did know there were individuals building copy F-5s but i think Randy Wood was the only name I knew about who was making them.

    Those were the Dark Ages.
    Pictures on the mandolin archive. http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...ins.pl?all:1:4

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  30. #270
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    The Ren video is great. Had never seen that before.
    At one point he mentions that "Steve had purchased Flatiron from Chuck." Chuck is Chuck Morrison. He is more of a classical guitar builder in Boulder but in the early 80's thought he could build some pancake mandolins and be able to sell them. He called them Flatirons from the rock formations above Boulder.
    Somehow he ended up trying to sell them in Bozeman to Steve Carlson who owned a music store. They eventually went into business together but it wasn't Chucks thing and he sold out to Steve.
    EDIT May have been late 70's as fatt-dad says.
    Last edited by Jim Hilburn; Jun-24-2019 at 11:21am.

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  32. #271
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    (Flatiron may have actually started in Boulder Colorado in the late '70s. Back-porch productions got into making the army-navy styles (aka pancakes). I think it was after a spell they moved to Bozeman, continued flattops and then got into the archtop f-hole mandolins. I think that was '82 or '83.)

    f-d
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    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    The Ren video is great. Had never seen that before.
    At one point he mentions that "Steve had purchased Flatiron from Chuck." Chuck is Chuck Morrison. He is more of a classical guitar builder in Boulder but in the early 80's thought he could build some pancake mandolins and be able to sell them. He called them Flatirons from the rock formations above Boulder.
    Somehow he ended up trying to sell them in Bozeman to Steve Carlson who owned a music store. They eventually went into business together but it wasn't Chucks thing and he sold out to Steve.
    EDIT May have been late 70's as fatt-dad says.
    Thank you! That is the first time I have heard anyone detail exactly how Flatiron started and why there was a disconnect between the the age of the company (started in the '70s) and when they actually started producing the Festival and Artist models ('83).
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    Fingers of Concrete ccravens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post

    (or direct link - video entitled "Play Authentic - Or Else!" from SpectreSoundStudios)
    What a great video.

    As of this post, it has almost 93,000 views and over 1500 comments.
    Chris Cravens

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  36. #274
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    In my opinion the original video did not come across as bad as most people make it out to be,,IMO I see a lot of over dramatic detractors,

  37. #275

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    In my opinion the original video did not come across as bad as most people make it out to be,,IMO I see a lot of over dramatic detractors,
    If you gotta C&D letter you might think differently.
    Play it like you mean it.

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