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Thread: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

  1. #851
    Registered User Eric Hanson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    After watching the Jim Hilburn posted video with Dave Harvey, one has to have at least a little bit of respect for what Gibson is trying to pull off.
    Yep. It really STINKS what they are doing in pursuing the F Style trademark attempt. I don’t have enough “in the know” to say anything either way on the legalities or otherwise. Just that a VERY great number of luthiers who have great respect for the shape; and have based their livelihoods on that shape, would be terribly crippled if Gibson won such a case.
    Cool what Dave Harvey is doing with the privilege of being able to build as close to spec as possible, short of the varnish. Cool too the relationship he is maintaining with those who still love the brand, and their instruments. He seems to try and keep a dual line of respect open.
    One can only hope that this whole mess gets sorted out soon.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hanson View Post
    ....with the privilege of being able to build as close to spec as possible, short of the varnish. .....
    Not exactly to OP but...
    I don't know privileges but they certainly build to specs that their CNC staff loaded into machines. I'm not talking about sound as I haven't played recent Gibson (post 2010) in quite a few years but the scroll design of current production is, IMHO, one of the worst since 70's.
    I always told the guy who designed the original F-2/4 and F-5 (and I suspect they were both designed by the same person (NOT Loar) and possibly at the same time, just the F-5 production was delayed) had great eye for balance of curvature and relative dimensions but very few makers have or are following that closely.
    Adrian

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    Registered User Buck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Links View Post
    As per a recent thread regarding a Gibson employee signing their mandolin labels as an "Acoustic Engineer" (which they are not), maybe it is time for all owners of signed Gibson mandolins to file a class action lawsuit against Gibson for fraud or at least violation of licensing statutes in Tennessee. It is my understanding that the use of the term "engineer" is illegal except for registered engineers ...... regardless of the modifier "acoustic" or any other one. "Yes sir, your honor, I thought when I bought my F Style Master Model, that it was checked out and approved by a registered Acoustic Engineer!"
    Engineering licensure is handled by each state, and some are more agressive about the misuse of the term than others. Generally speaking, if services are offered publicly, you cannot call yourself an engineer unless you are registered/licensed to practice engineering in the state where the work is being performed. There are no such restrictions on naming positions internal to a company. So, if I employed someone in my own business, I could give that person the title of "Photocopy Engineer" for example. That would not typically be a violation of state law. Now, if my company publicly offered the services of our "Photocopy Engineer" or "Photocopy Engineering services" we'd be in trouble with the board of licensure.

    I don't think any state has an Acoustic Engineer license. Someone offering that service would typically be a mechanical or electrical engineer who specializes in acoustics. Since Gibson doesn't offer those services publicly, I doubt their label is a violation of any state law. That said, I'm not familiar with the licensure laws of every state.
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    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    Not exactly to OP but...
    I don't know privileges but they certainly build to specs that their CNC staff loaded into machines. I'm not talking about sound as I haven't played recent Gibson (post 2010) in quite a few years but the scroll design of current production is, IMHO, one of the worst since 70's.
    I always told the guy who designed the original F-2/4 and F-5 (and I suspect they were both designed by the same person (NOT Loar) and possibly at the same time, just the F-5 production was delayed) had great eye for balance of curvature and relative dimensions but very few makers have or are following that closely.
    Funny you should say that. I dont think Loar built anything. Just signed his name on a label. Im sure he had a part in the tone factor but thats it. Just like todays Slash endorsing todays Les Paul with a few tweeks here and there and signing his name. :D

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    Wish someone would put this thread out of it's misery


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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by slimt View Post
    Funny you should say that. I dont think Loar built anything. Just signed his name on a label. Im sure he had a part in the tone factor but thats it. Just like todays Slash endorsing todays Les Paul with a few tweeks here and there and signing his name. :D
    Wait, are you saying Slash doesn't make every one of those Les Pauls? Next thing you are going to tell us is that he just does it for the money

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by daveginnj View Post
    wait, are you saying slash doesn't make every one of those les pauls? Next thing you are going to tell us is that he just does it for the money
    omg!
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    David Hopkins

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    Not exactly to OP but...
    I don't know privileges but they certainly build to specs that their CNC staff loaded into machines. I'm not talking about sound as I haven't played recent Gibson (post 2010) in quite a few years but the scroll design of current production is, IMHO, one of the worst since 70's.
    I always told the guy who designed the original F-2/4 and F-5 (and I suspect they were both designed by the same person (NOT Loar) and possibly at the same time, just the F-5 production was delayed) had great eye for balance of curvature and relative dimensions but very few makers have or are following that closely.
    A quick look at page 1 of the Gibsons on the mandolin archive site shows quite a variation of the scrolls just in the 1922-early 1923 period. Apparently they have lots of scroll designs to choose from
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by slimt View Post
    Funny you should say that. I dont think Loar built anything. Just signed his name on a label. Im sure he had a part in the tone factor but thats it. Just like todays Slash endorsing todays Les Paul with a few tweeks here and there and signing his name. :D
    I wrote "NOT Loar" in my post, perhaps you missed it...
    I never suggested Loar really worked on these mandolin nor designed them. I guess he didn't do much more work on instruments other than testing/playing and taking notes of things for staff to adjust in production.
    Adrian

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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    A quick look at page 1 of the Gibsons on the mandolin archive site shows quite a variation of the scrolls just in the 1922-early 1923 period. Apparently they have lots of scroll designs to choose from
    Bill, with all due respect, I believe you're missing the point; please forgive my frankness. The scrolls may vary on the original F5s, but (e. g.) hardly any or even none of them has the binding mitre (of the body scroll) kink down like an eagle beak, as is visible in most any modern Gibson. Plus the scroll opening on the latter is soo wide in certain areas that I immediately get the idea about a big binding router, which went a bit too far (so only the very last bit of binding rabbet has to be carved out by hand). Check the scroll opening on the original F5s. In almost each case it starts at the 13th fret and hardly varies in width towards the mitre, where the bindings meet in two elegant curves, which never change their direction abruptly, much like a hyperbolic-logarithmic spiral. In my view, a fundamentally different approach on the originals. This does not only apply to the body scroll, but also to the whole treble side lower bout and both head stock scrolls, which look very different in modern Gibsons. No doubt that Adrian spent so much time looking at vintage F5s (or pics thereof) that he spots the differences from 20 feet away in a glance.

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    A quick look at page 1 of the Gibsons on the mandolin archive site shows quite a variation of the scrolls just in the 1922-early 1923 period. Apparently they have lots of scroll designs to choose from
    I have seen and deeply studied my share of these scrolls and made comparisons in computer and they ALL are based upon one design albeit not always executed with perfect precision. The flow of curves and balance of position of scroll on body is hard to beat, and even mandolins like Ellis or Collings with perfectly (machine) executed scrolls lack those curves and especially position relative to shape of body and fingerboard and from some angles they look like extraneous object added to perfect symmetrical a style body. That's what is in their design, not execution. The vintage F style body had the whole body outline adjusted with intentional asymmetry of curves to balance the presence of the scroll and points so the whole looks smoothly balanced.
    The post flood Gibsons have unusually wide cutout inside the scroll that IMO totally kills the design. I guess that is where design was defeated by CNC machining guys to allow simpler cutting of he inside with thicker long router bit.
    Adrian

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    I have seen and deeply studied my share of these scrolls and made comparisons in computer and they ALL are based upon one design albeit not always executed with perfect precision................................
    The post flood Gibsons have unusually wide cutout inside the scroll that IMO totally kills the design. I guess that is where design was defeated by CNC machining guys to allow simpler cutting of he inside with thicker long router bit.
    I was commenting only on the workmanship of the scroll and the variation in, uniformity of the clearance, and how the binding was cut and mitered. In fact, I was looking to see if there was some consistency in the inconsistency of the builds that might have suggested attribution to one of the three builders (I believe there were 3 men who made the F-5s). I'm sure they all worked from the same plan, and many parts were premachined before being sent for assembly, but the variation suggests that the inspectors and Lloyd Loar allowed for the variation of those appearance pieces, ie, they are not part of the vibrating surface (in the broadest term, I'm sure they vibrate some). But they were made by hand to the shop tolerances, so they will and do vary. After all, it was a factory.

    I wasn't commenting at all on 1922-24 vs new Gibsons, Ellis, or anybody else.

    How Gibson arrived at their design decision is unknown to me, but folks can vote by spending their dollars as they please. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if not the ear
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I wonder how many non-Gibson mandolins and guitars were built since this thread started.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    What about mandolas and octaves? I have a custom f-style octave mandolin. Are Eddie Blevins and I going to jail?
    David Hopkins

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict this threads demise in the not so distant future.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankdolin View Post
    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict this threads demise in the not so distant future.
    Aw, c'mon, now. It's not hurting anyone. Every once in a while, there's an epiphany that makes it worthwhile.
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    Registered User Roger Adams's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Oh well, it's good exercise beating on a dead horse!
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Oh, just one more thing....
    I watched an interview with Sierra Hull talking about her instruments. Her mandolin is a 2009 Master Model made by Dave Harvey. Anyone who finds any fault with that instrument is a world class nit-picker.
    At some point after that one they seemed to change something that resulted in the new scroll look. Sure wish they'd go back to making them like hers. Then no one would have anything to complain about.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    Oh, just one more thing....
    I watched an interview with Sierra Hull talking about her instruments. Her mandolin is a 2009 Master Model made by Dave Harvey. Anyone who finds any fault with that instrument is a world class nit-picker.
    At some point after that one they seemed to change something that resulted in the new scroll look. Sure wish they'd go back to making them like hers. Then no one would have anything to complain about.
    Maybe, maybe not. There are those who would complain if you bought a new rope to hang 'em.
    Last edited by DHopkins; Mar-15-2020 at 1:17pm.
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    Registered User Roger Adams's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. There are those who complain if you bought a new rope to hang 'em.
    Truth!
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Dodson View Post
    My first ever mandolin was a Rouge I bought off of amazon for about $50 new...
    Maybe it wasn't properly made up -- er, set up. And how were the cosmetics?

    By the way, it's Rogue. "Rouge" is what ladies apply to their cheeks.

    Sorry to be snarky, but I've seen one too many "Rouge" mandolin references.
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I'm thinking that Baton Rogue see's as many mistakes. It's easy for me, I grew up near the Rogue river that it's named after.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I am thinking of selling a line of reddish mandolins called “The Rouge”. They will be French polished with an inlay of a pig wearing lipstick.
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I'm thinking that Baton Rogue see's as many mistakes. It's easy for me, I grew up near the Rogue river that it's named after.
    Do you really think people misspell Louisiana's capital or the river. Well, yes, I guess they do.
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Several years ago a group played the Woodstown Bluegrass festival. The name of the band was The Red Stick Ramblers. There were probably three or four of us that got the joke.

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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