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Thread: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

  1. #101
    Registered User THart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    You make a good point. Think of Kleenex, Band-Aid, Cellophane, Dumpster, etc.
    ...Dobro

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    What kind of statement is that? Your knocking him because he worked at,Levis? He was not some guy but president of global affairs and I've read he did great things for Levis,and he's doing great things now,for Gibson.They are producing now some of best instruments in their history,don't believe me,first go try a new Les Paul '60''s standard,,rave reviews across the board.I can't wait to see the new acoustic line unveiled next month J.C. has taken the Gibson bull by the horns and part of that I imagine is trying to protect what's theirs..Gibson is driving full steam ahead and taking no prisoners
    I sort of agree with you. Management skills are management skills but I believe the powers-that-be at Gibson are chasing their collective tail by wasting their resources trying to finance a battle that they're likely to lose.
    David Hopkins

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    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

  3. #103
    Registered User Jim DeSalvio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    As a mostly guitar player, I have never really been a big fan of Gibson. However, I recently picked up a J-45 Standard, ordered through a new Gibson dealer in Fishers, IN. We went through the Custom Shop, with the only "custom" feature being deletion of the electronics. I have to say, the guitar arrived with very good fit and finish, and a very nice set-up. It plays nicely, and is the only mahogany back/sides guitar I own. So right now, I am pleased with it. Of course, this was all done before all of this erupted.

    I can honestly say, it will be my one, and only Gibson.

    Jim D
    Jim D

  4. #104
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    Having worked for a company owned by KKR, I can assure you their only goal is money. Period. If they could sell Les Pauls for $4000 that were made of balsa wood and sawdust, they would. Their goal is always to flip the company for a profit in three to five years.

    Mark has sold his soul to KKR, wittingly or not, for money. He will have to live with that. When, not if, his usefulness to Gibson ends, the scrap heap awaits. KKR has no conscience or loyalty to anything but money. That highly skilled employee of thirty years who may build fine instruments has value only if deemed to make the company more money than the ten year guy standing next to him.
    Sold his soul? Is it really that dire? Is the man marked for life now?

    I'll bet Mark comes home from Gibson every day and is nice to his wife and kids and still smiles when he meets his friends. Just like he did when he worked for Norm's Great Guitars. And I'll bet if the job at Gibson does not work out he'll find another job just fine?

    The point has been made and it seems true to me -- Gibson is making great instruments again (mandolins and electric guitars are good examples) and that people at the top do not seem to be causing problems but fixing them? Let's wait and see what the future holds for Gibson?
    Bernie
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  6. #105

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    I've got, I mean my friend has a Les Paul mandolin, his he safe?

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    that should be protected as satire
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  7. #106

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

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  8. #107
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DeSalvio View Post
    As a mostly guitar player, I have never really been a big fan of Gibson. However, I recently picked up a J-45 Standard, ordered through a new Gibson dealer in Fishers, IN. We went through the Custom Shop, with the only "custom" feature being deletion of the electronics. I have to say, the guitar arrived with very good fit and finish, and a very nice set-up. It plays nicely, and is the only mahogany back/sides guitar I own. So right now, I am pleased with it. Of course, this was all done before all of this erupted.

    I can honestly say, it will be my one, and only Gibson.

    Jim D
    On the other side of the coin I own 7 Gibson instruments right now and since the early 70's I've owned at least another 30 or more other Gibsons, both old and new, mandolins, mandolas, mandocellos, flattops, arch tops, 12 strings, banjos (tenor, 5 string and MB) I even had a Gibson violin once (really). I LOVE Gibson instruments.

    I don't love everything the company does or has done and for sure and they have made their mistakes and I have called them out many times on this very forum --e.g., for building poor quality instruments, for their lack of customer support, to their shoddy record keeping, and in the past their bullying and cheating small parts and wood suppliers. These are the faults of individual people not the company. Gibson is not perfect but they are not some minor level of Dante's hell either.

    Gibson is a great company with roots why back to the days of Orville and Lloyd and owning one means you have a link to America's musical past - just like owning a Martin guitar.

    If I keep living I'll probably be owning other Gibsons instruments too. These legal actions (subject of this thread) are not a show stopper for me at least.

    Others might see it differently and that is fine too.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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  10. #108
    Front Porch & Sweet Tea NursingDaBlues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Originally Posted by Tom C: "I say we start referring to ALL guitars and mandolins as gibsons. Make it as generic as Hoover is to Vacuum in England.
    Couldn't somebody prove that design became generic?"


    Well, in a sense the mandolin industry already has...as in "F"- and "A"- styles.

  11. #109
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeZito View Post
    Why on earth would you NOT want somebody to play your guitars on television, movies, videos, etc.? Hello - free advertising! Remember back in the late-60 or early-70's when Fender made the head stocks bigger so that the name could be seen better on television? Now that's a smart move.
    If I understand correctly, most companies pay for product placement in television and movies.

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  13. #110
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I suppose copied forgeries of great work are the most complimentary form of larceny.

    To my mind, there is a big difference between the post-post-modern nostalgic referencing of superior precedents, and blatant plagiarism of entire foundational designs created by another artist or business.

    Making a "bench-copy" of a great instrument to see if you have the chops to meet the qualities of a top-tier builder is a fine test of skill, but a terribly immoral long-term business plan.

    Gibson may be wrong in their approach with this video, but the ethical underpinnings of their message are right-on.

    Steve

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  15. #111

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    That might be true, but I hope they check their business model and make sure they are not infringing on anyone else’s trademarks. I know there are some models on their production line that infringe on other makers trademarks. Like they say, people in glass houses should not throw stones. So, if you want to take out the rule book, you need to follow it too.
    Good Advice: Play before you pay, and know your product and your market.

  16. #112

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sorensen View Post
    I suppose copied forgeries of great work are the most complimentary form of larceny.

    To my mind, there is a big difference between the post-post-modern nostalgic referencing of superior precedents, and blatant plagiarism of entire foundational designs created by another artist or business..........

    Gibson may be wrong in their approach with this video, but the ethical underpinnings of their message are right-on.

    Steve
    While I agree with this sentiment, deciding what is treading on another's IP is a slippery slope for sure. How much of an A or F style would it take to violate a trademark (which admittedly doesn't exist YET) may prove to be a very relevant question. But the trademark exists for the scroll peghead and that's problematic for many.
    Play it like you mean it.

  17. #113
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Levi's, I wouldn't call great things, I won't buy another pair of their jeans. Whole other topic mostly banned here but if that is what you get with this guy running things then I sure wouldn't expect the best of things with Gibson.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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  18. #114
    Front Porch & Sweet Tea NursingDaBlues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I have nothing to back this up, but I don’t believe this video or Gibson’s desire to retain/regain ownership rights to certain design elements will impact or affect the average stringed-instrument buyer. Someone wanting a Gibson product will purchase one. In my opinion, the information discussed in this thread and within similar threads on other forums just won’t touch most of the guitar and mandolin buying population. I may be wrong, but I don’t think Gibson will feel threatened by handful of folks on a handful of forums expressing indignation.

    The folks I feel for are the independent luthiers who may receive strongly worded notification inferring trademark/patent infringement. Such notification could be something that they can’t afford to contest – regardless of whether the allegations are valid. Probably the first counsel from a defendant’s attorney will be how long and how expensive a patent/trademark battle can be.

    While I don’t personally know if such notifications have been sent or are even being considered, I do feel a certain amount of sadness that the “shot across the bow” delivered in the video was necessary. I believe in originators’ owning their intellectual properties. I just wish that it had not come to this.

  19. #115
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by NursingDaBlues View Post
    If I understand correctly, most companies pay for product placement in television and movies.
    Right, that's the usual arrangement.

    What may be happening here, is that some film and video companies are taping over the logo on musical instruments because they don't want to make it look like they're getting paid for product placement. Especially if it's an indie film targeted at a certain audience that is very aware of those arrangements. And it wouldn't be just a Gibson logo but any logo. Guitars are somewhat unusual as a musical instrument in having very prominent logos. The only other example I can think of is a piano.

    From Gibson's perspective, of course they want those logos visible. They can't force it though. A film or TV production company that was averse to having too many obviously branded items would just choose a different brand.

  20. #116

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    The way the message is being delivered is tacky. The outrage that ensued surprised the company, and they removed it. Most companies would be doing damage control. Not these guys. They seem to be stuck in the 1980’s.


    And if you go over to the electric guitar forums I think you will find Gibson has lost quite a few customers.

    There are better ways to build a customer base and safeguard your IP. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Good Advice: Play before you pay, and know your product and your market.

  21. #117

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I was honored to get the Charlie D. flowerpot cease and desist email long ago, never heard back about the redesigned FUHJ Arizona pipestone flowerpot or the disturbed master scrollectomy model. Just lucky I guess....
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  23. #118

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    I was honored to get the Charlie D. flowerpot cease and desist email long ago, never heard back about the redesigned FUHJ Arizona pipestone flowerpot or the disturbed master scrollectomy model. Just lucky I guess....
    Bill.....you ARE the man!

  24. #119

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    I have had a few Gibsons but none were modern. Quality in the modern ones was not there based on the price imho. Don't own one now and after watching that video likely never will again. A manufacturer can build long term brand loyalty based on consistency of quality. They can also destroy future sales by acting like they just did. Oh so happy with my Collings. Bye bye Gibson for me.
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  25. #120

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    I expect this is what they're going to go after long before they deal with mandolins. A friend of mine played Denver last weekend with the most beautiful sunburst J-45... except it was an Eastman.
    I’m thinking this may have set them off and running. Eastman is a pretty big target.
    Good Advice: Play before you pay, and know your product and your market.

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  27. #121
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Builders may avoid the conflict by modifying proportions. There's famous examples...


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    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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  29. #122
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    All this really doesn't bother me, I love all my old Gibson mandolins and the like even a modern Harvey signed mandolin. I'm more into the old stuff anyway but as far as their newer mandolins, I think they are building some of the best and have been for quite sometime. I can see their point but it may be too late as everyone/almost everyone has copied the F-5, A-5, flowerpot and fern? Just like Martin I've seen counterfeit instruments "mainly guitars" that say came from China "Chibson's" They even say Gibson on them? I'll always be interested in the vintage Gibson stuff, never really liked their electric guitars as I'm a Telecaster man! To our home grown builders who make F-5's and the like, I think its an honor that they are making instruments to pay homage to Gibson? If you want a Gibson buy a Gibson. I don't think they'll or can go after every builder? As long as say Mr or Miss whoever aren't inlaying the Gibson name in the peg head? I know the first few of America's independent builders did this ages ago like Randy Wood, John Monteleone etc....So in short I won't boycott Gibson products old or new if I can get a deal!

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  31. #123
    Registered User TheMandoKit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    ... the disturbed master scrollectomy model....
    Bill:

    You're killin' me, man!

    Now everyone is going to want one.

    John
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  32. #124

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community


  33. #125
    Phil Goodson Philphool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Stompbox View Post
    Looks like leather jackets are the new Gibson uniform.
    Phil

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