Bernie
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Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Hi. Can you tell me your source for those dates? For example production certainly started before 1950 because there are 1949 F-5s of note out there. For example, I'm pretty sure that Bobby Osborne had a 1949 F-5? I thought that the shut down dates of 1940 and start up of 1948 were good dates? You say no? Post #401 is kind of on the same topic!
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Flatiron: setting the record straight and a bit of context:
I primarily agree with the prior posts here which emphasize the untenable act of forging the 'Gibson' name and passing off forgeries and fakes on the public as the real thing. That is nothing but fraud and deceit. Completely different (to me) from patterning an instrument style after features long held in the public domain, ie the Florentine mandolin and it's common shape and appointments.
The 1st Flatiron Mandolins shipped to music stores in early 1979 (under the banner of Backporch Productions, made in Montana, USA). Carved top models, both A and F style, started shipping in 1983 (maybe late 1982). Both A and F models were built on a weekly basis, 4-A's and 2-F's, all the way through 1986.
Flatiron was a very small 'shop' throughout its building years. By 1983 shop size ranged between 6 to 10 people. Gibson bought Flatiron for the production capacity of our shop.
More info on Flatirons origin (off topic) here: https://zetaviolins.com/steve-carlson
Flatiron carved tops were not a 'direct' copy of a Gibson. At that time I had no access to a Gibson F5. It helps to remember, I live in Montana. I had been attending trade shows since 1977 (both as a music dealer (my store the Backporch Pickin' Parlor) and later as a displaying vendor (Flatiron Mandolins). Aside from questionable quality import mandolins at trade shows, the only quality 'F' style mandolin I had ever held or played was carried around the trade show floor by George Gruhn,( a Flatiron dealer who would come by our Flatiron booth) . . . and this F model was both exceptional sounding and exquisite looking and I bought it for inspiration. The distinctive carve is unique and easily recognized as not Gibson. I was reminded of this only recently at the Big Sky Bluegrass Festival here in Montana just a month ago, when I sat down with two of the main mandolin artists of the show.
I spent the entire year of 1986 tooling up and fixturing to produce Flatiron banjos. This included building the crew size up as well, to a level of about 16 people. This was all in preparation of attending the January NAMM 1987 trade show with I believe 3 or 4 banjo models. Because this effort involved many late late nights of work; fixturing, building, spraying, inlay, etc . . . Ren Ferguson and I would ruminate quite often on the crazy aspect of Gibson not producing mandolins . . . which then led to the thought and discussion that perhaps they would want us to make them for them . . . I mean, why not?
So I went to the trade show that year kind of thinking this was a wonderful idea. Not only we're we launching our new banjo line . . . but hey, why aren't we making Gibson mandolins for Gibson? That makes good business sense right? Unfortunately (in hindsight) . . . the very 1st person that the brand new owner of Gibson (HJ) met on the trade show floor at 8:00 a.m., first day of the show . . . was me. He had officially owned the Gibson company for all of about 8 hours and then he met me. And I was suggesting that since they weren't making mandolins that perhaps we should make them for them. That didn't go over well.
About a month after the show, we received a cease and desist letter . . . typical format I would say. When you receive something like that, I don't care who you are, it is disconcerting and gives one cause to consider the future in a different light.
Contrary to reports elsewhere, Flatiron did not suffer financial setback and or turn to making banjos due to Gibson's cease and desist . . . it was just one great big irritation as one has to waste time pondering 'what-if' scenarios you weren't pondering yesterday. Banjos had been set up to produce at a certain level, which I think was about 2 a week and that's what we did . . . and mandolin production continued as before. All sales and production only adjusted as before . . . according to typical market demand and fluctuation. Again, we were a small shop.
What happened over the next year was that Gibson, despite some effort on their part, was unsuccessful in producing mandolins in any quantity. At the very next trade show in Anaheim, 1987, I found myself at the Gibson booth discussing mandolins (and Gibson) with Jim Triggs and Charlie Derrington. As I was walking a way I ran into Stan Jay (Mandolin Brothers, very good Flatiron Dealer) who asked me what was happening regarding the 'cease and desist'. I explained I had heard nothing further but went on to suggest how crazy it was to potentially spend money in an effort to put me out of business when they could solve their mandolin 'problem', and it would cost them less, to work with me. Stan Jay thought that made total sense and he did an abrupt about face and headed straight towards Henry, who was playing guitar on stage with a band at the Gibson booth. Likewise, I did an abrupt about face and was out of there.
Side Note: It helps to understand that Henry employed the services of several consultants in the industry for advice as part of his 'learning/understanding' of the new industry he was involved in. George Gruhn (Gruhn Guitars), Stan Werbin (Elderly Instruments), Stan Jay (Mandolin Brothers), and others. So suffice it to say . . . HJ was willing to listen to Stan. Additionally, during that 1st year of ownership, 1986, with the word out that Gibson was going to be bringing back the 'old quality' and making good mandolins and banjos again . . . backorders for F-5L mandolins had risen into the hundreds (the type of thing that 'managers' read on their daily reports) . . . and mandolin production at the Nashville plant was no more than 1 a month.
About a week after the 1987 trade show I received a call from Charlie Derrington stating that Henry wanted to talk to me and would I be interested in coming down to Nashville for a meeting. I went to Nashville and met with Henry privately in his office. Eventually the question came regarding how many I thought I could make. My reply was "as many as you want". The response was 'no really, how many'. I said . . . 'I'm serious, as many as you want, but it is most important to produce at true demand level, because it takes a bit to get the crew built with the skill level necessary to meet the quality level we want/need to maintain demand", etc. etc. Henry says: "So what would you say that level is" and I said "probably about 6/week could be maintained long-term".
Shortly after that exchange Henry proposed that Gibson acquire Flatiron and told me to see Dave Berryman and work out the details.
This was in February of 1987. The goal was set to have Gibson's new F-5L mandolin for the summer NAMM show. For the 1st and only time I used a Gibson F5 as a pattern for the Gibson F-5L we would be making. We used Charlie Derrington's (greenish) Lloyd Loar F5 as the pattern for all things and all progress was approved along the way by Jim Triggs and Charlie. Tooling and fixturing was a night and day effort from March to June and in July we we're at the NAMM show with the 1st 6 Gibson F-5Ls . . . and started producing 6 a week after that, every week until my departure which came at the end of 1993. (This production was interrupted during the guitar plant start up, etc, but returned to these #'s when I was put back in charge thru 1993). Note: Flatiron carve tops and Gibson carve tops were entirely different patterns.
So . . . the lesson: nothing gets accomplished thru the front door. It has to come from inside and behind closed doors.
My thoughts . . . Gibson will never make high volume of F's again. They owned probably 80% or more of the mandolin market back then, between Flatiron and Gibson. No one (other USA companies) was interested in competing making mandolins against Gibson at that time. But in the end, it was meaningless money in the bigger scheme of things . . . and a hassle for them. After all, it's a completely different production process and mentality. At minimum it takes upwards of 8 hours or more just to detail an F style mandolin. On the guitar shop floor personnel have just minutes to do an electric or acoustic guitar. It's hard to reconcile the differences. They gave it all up and moved on.
They (the company) don't care about 'mandolins' . . . but royalties they think are deserved.
Steve Carlson
Last edited by Steve Carlson; Jun-29-2019 at 2:01pm.
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Wow! Thank you so much Mr. Steve Carlson!
You have have answered some of the questions about the Flatiron-Gibson interface that I have wondered about for years!
Never imagined you would end up answering those questions on this forum but I am so glad you did. I used to pump Roger Siminoff for bits of the story but on parts he would say you'll have to ask Steve Carlson about that!
Awesome story!
Bernie
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Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Steve Carlson,,thank you that's incredible information,,by the way I'm a big fan,I have a '92 A5L signed by you,fantastic mandolin both in construction and sound!
Mr. Carlson,
I truly appreciate your sharing the very interesting facts about how your interaction developed! Your perspective in this whole thing is much more interesting to my mind, than the chest thumping bullying offered by the company and subsequent ire presented by those with little to gain aside from adding numbers of posts to their profile.
Not to say there surely isn’t room for some “lively” conversation on the subject.
I apologize to anyone who is offended but, that’s the way I’m seeing this playing out.
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Thanks Bernie. Aside from the 'let-down' of the moment (ie, 1st encounter with Henry on the NAMM show floor January 1986) and subsequent frustration . . . there are odd vivid memories that provide a chuckle to look back on.
At that show, when I presented Henry our Flatiron (carve-top) Brochure and described the quality product we could provide Gibson . . . he turned away slightly and under his breath murmured to Lane Astro (then head of Gibson Sales), 'I think we have a problem here'. I thought I heard him say . . . 'I think we have a product here' . . . so I continued with fervor my sales pitch.
Alas . . . it was not so . . . and it was then he informed me that I must have misunderstood . . . that in fact 'Gibson was back' and he was going to shut us down, me and anyone else copying Gibson product. I plucked my brochure from his hand and walked away.
Ironically, Henry and I became good friends later (at least in my perspective) and I greatly enjoyed the challenges and opportunities that were afforded me during most of my 6 years at Gibson. It is common that in situations like this (ie buyouts), there is about a 1 year honeymoon with former management. Typically because in the early days the only thing that matters is performance, and we were long on that. However, in the end what matters in the corporate environment is conformity . . . and usually the entrepreneurial spirit lacks that attribute.
Steve Carlson
Steve Carlson,
Thanks for all the great info.
"the only quality 'F' style mandolin I had ever held or played was carried around the trade show floor by George Gruhn,( a Flatiron dealer who would come by our Flatiron booth) . . . and this F model was both exceptional sounding and exquisite looking and I bought it for inspiration"
I assume you mean this was not a Gibson mandolin?
Were very many Flatiron banjos made? I have only seen a couple.
Thanks again.
Russ Jordan
Thanks for that. But who wrote that document where you got that paragraph please?
That paragraph notwithstanding I think there is still some uncertainty on this matter.
And also some contradiction in the paragraph itself perhaps? Note one line in the paragraph says production ended "shortly after the war began"? Well, WWIi started in September of 1939. Hard think of 1942 as being "shortly after" but 1940 would be shortly perhaps?
And again as to the resumption of production date post the war. I'm pretty confident that it is not 1950? For one thing I am pretty sure that Bobby Osborne started playing a 1949 F-12 -- it had the fret board glued to the top board. Here is a thread from the forum from over a decade ago. Note fLoar's comments about it.
So either Bobby's mandolin is not a 1949 model (actually I know I read somewhere it was built in late 1948) or that date of 1950 in the paragraph is incorrect?
Here is another bit of evidence that calls that paragraph into question:
In Graham McDonald's book, "The Mandolin - a history" you will find at the bottom of page 240 this quote "Gibson started making mandolins again that year with both the F-5 and an F-12 available" Then from the previous sentence we see "that year" refers to 1948 (i.e., the year mandolin production was re-started). That time (late 1948 has been the date I have carried around in my head for decades as the time the Gibson factory started making mandolins).
Then one other bit of information. One finds on page 147 of Walter Carter's book "Gibson Guitars - -100 years of an American Icon" the comments that production at the Gibson factory ended in 1941 and resumed in 1947.
Be interesting if others weigh in this but in truth the our conversation here is a bit OT! LOL
Bernie
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Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Yes . . . sorry for that (unclear) oversight on my part . . . 'that F-style 'inspirational' mandolin I purchased from George Gruhn was definitely not a Gibson, but rather an extremely fine example of the craft by a noted maker with 'his name on the peghead'.
It may be of further interest to note that at that time (probably January 1981) sales of 16 flat-style Flatirons a week (comprised of a mix of mandolins, mandolas, and octaves) was starting to slow . . . and I had made the decision to venture into the carve-top realm. It's also hard to imagine now that at the time there was only imports available and being sold thru dealers, except for a couple significant exceptions of noted luthiers selling thru Mandolin Brothers, Gruhn Guitars and perhaps Folk Arts Music in Boulder, CO. Interestingly, the same void in the market that existed regarding 'any' USA made mandolins available back in 1979 still existed in carve tops in 1982, so it presented itself as another untapped opportunity. Additionally, by that time I had become not only adept at tooling and fixturing, but also passionate about it . . . and so it was a fundamental move . . . not necessarily easy . . . but fundamental.
Consequently I bought that 'non-Gibson' F mandolin and started down that path.
Regarding banjos I would say less than 200 Flatirons were made. The complication became my involvement with Gibson's banjo production. Ironically, when Gibson purchased Flatiron they didn't know we even made banjos, but on my many visits to Nashville it occurred that I became good friends with Greg Rich and so I started making all the Gibson banjo necks, fingerboards and resonators. Sales/Production of Flatiron banjos were never more than a couple a week and eventually stopped when I was moved to CFO of Gibson in about 1990 (somewhat after building the Acoustic Guitar plant in Bozeman). The love of banjo (mine) was not shared enthusiastically by other management and thus it petered out in my absence.
Steve Carlson
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Bernie,,I got that from the complete guide to Gibson mandolins by Paul Fox,,I really couldn't tell you how accurate the information is,but it's Gibson so of course there's missing information and exceptions,,,,
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
Ok! Well then Mr. Gruhn's relationship at the time I suppose could have been with mandolin builders in places like Georgia perhaps?
Or who knows Kentucky was making some fine mandolins in those days too (in Japan) -- but I don't know if they had a unique carve that was distinctively not Gibson? They sure were nice little mandolins though and they inspired me at least.
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Steve Gilchrist was selling most of his F-5 mandolins through Gruhn at that time (including x braced examples).
Last edited by Mandomusic; Jun-29-2019 at 7:01pm.
What about Paganoni and Wood?
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