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Thread: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

  1. #376
    Howling at the moon Wolfboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    FYI. In the early 1980s, Martin Guitars issued a letter asserting that the Takamine F-340 and other models featured a logo design that was allegedly nearly identical to their own. A law suite was threatened but never enacted according to Martin.
    Well, in fairness, that Takamine logo was almost identical to the Martin logo (IMO), and presumably intentionally so. I can kind of understand where Martin was coming from on that one. But that seems very different from what Gibson is doing now - Martin didn't attack Takamine or anybody else for headstock shapes or body styles that were obviously based on Martin's, nor did they accuse other guitar makers who were putting their own names/logos on their headstocks of making "counterfeits," as Gibson is doing. And as you and Mike say, even in the case of the Takamine logo Martin never took it as far as an actual lawsuit.

  2. #377

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    It seems a lot of people are confusing the politics with the product. I like my Gibsons. Granted, they are all vintage, but still. Also, I repair and setup a lot of recent Gibsons and think the Bozeman stuff is great, the VOS stuff is great, and if you have the money the Historic series R8's, R9's, etc. -- all good stuff, IMHO. Same with custom shop if you want to spend the money. In fact, money seems to be the only real complaint.......cost vs what the same money might get you somewhere else.

    Henry took a lot of hits and rightly so, IMHO, but overall the "henry era" overlaps the Bozeman era, the Derrington era, and the Harvey era, FWIW...........so.....IMHO, pretty impressive stuff, really!

    OK, new corporate ownership, throwing some weight around..........about what I'd expect. I'm not a corporate guy. In fact, I don't give a rat's hind end what some corporate approved spokeperson says about much of anything. Go to a big guitar show and you'll meet a hundred Mark A's there........doesn't bother me. I can think for myself. I can pick up an instrument and decide if it has "THE STUFF" or not! Very simple.......

    As far as the new investors trying to recoup by whatever means necessary -- sure seems desperate to me. I think the Gibson name is their biggest selling point. OTOH, and I hate to say it, did most of the boutique makers copy Gibson's F5? Yep, right down to the measurements and probably even tracing it. Do I care? Nope.... Do I think that Gilchrist selling 17 instruments a year hurts Gibson's bottom line? Nope, Gibson makes more in string sales and straps than Gilchrist makes, shouldn't even be a blip on their radar, IMHO. (that is, assuming the business is being run right......)

    Thanks for the chuckles about the leather jacket and the fact it was mentioned more than once! Good stuff!

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  4. #378

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    When Siminoff or Derrington started making mandolins for Gibson, while designing their mandolins I'm sure they "copied the Gibson F-5 and probably even traced it". They just did it while working for the entity that owned the name at the time.

  5. #379
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    It seems a lot of people are confusing the politics with the product. I like my Gibsons. Granted, they are all vintage, but still. Also, I repair and setup a lot of recent Gibsons and think the Bozeman stuff is great, the VOS stuff is great, and if you have the money the Historic series R8's, R9's, etc. -- all good stuff, IMHO. Same with custom shop if you want to spend the money. In fact, money seems to be the only real complaint.......cost vs what the same money might get you somewhere else.

    Henry took a lot of hits and rightly so, IMHO, but overall the "henry era" overlaps the Bozeman era, the Derrington era, and the Harvey era, FWIW...........so.....IMHO, pretty impressive stuff, really!

    OK, new corporate ownership, throwing some weight around..........about what I'd expect. I'm not a corporate guy. In fact, I don't give a rat's hind end what some corporate approved spokeperson says about much of anything. Go to a big guitar show and you'll meet a hundred Mark A's there........doesn't bother me. I can think for myself. I can pick up an instrument and decide if it has "THE STUFF" or not! Very simple.......

    As far as the new investors trying to recoup by whatever means necessary -- sure seems desperate to me. I think the Gibson name is their biggest selling point. OTOH, and I hate to say it, did most of the boutique makers copy Gibson's F5? Yep, right down to the measurements and probably even tracing it. Do I care? Nope.... Do I think that Gilchrist selling 17 instruments a year hurts Gibson's bottom line? Nope, Gibson makes more in string sales and straps than Gilchrist makes, shouldn't even be a blip on their radar, IMHO. (that is, assuming the business is being run right......)

    Thanks for the chuckles about the leather jacket and the fact it was mentioned more than once! Good stuff!
    Great post Jeff!

    I also don't care too much for these threats or law suites (or whatever they turn out to be) -- but Gibson absolutely has the right to do them. End of the day they might not be the best decision by their new management (or they may have no effect at all) but hey those kind of corporate decisions are made hourly for better or for worst.

    I'm certainly not going to stop buying Gibson products, including new ones, because of them however.

    Concern and disagreement with these actions by Gibson is perfectly reasonable and a matter of opinion certainly.

    OTOH, the level of apoplexy and agony seen in parts of this thread seem kind of over the top and silly and the references to thugs, leather jackets, and boots is juvenile (all of course IMNSHO).
    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Jun-28-2019 at 9:39am.
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  7. #380
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfboy View Post
    Well, in fairness, that Takamine logo was almost identical to the Martin logo (IMO), and presumably intentionally so. I can kind of understand where Martin was coming from on that one. But that seems very different from what Gibson is doing now - Martin didn't attack Takamine or anybody else for headstock shapes or body styles that were obviously based on Martin's, nor did they accuse other guitar makers who were putting their own names/logos on their headstocks of making "counterfeits," as Gibson is doing. And as you and Mike say, even in the case of the Takamine logo Martin never took it as far as an actual lawsuit.
    Martin did not take any other further legal action because Takamine "ceased and desisted" after the threat -- my point was Martin and many companies make such treats every day. (and actually I expect what was in Martin's "corporate legal mind" was the totality of the impression? If you were around then you know that those guitars had both the flat, dark brown Martin head stock along with the similar shaped logo silhouette?)

    As to whether the actions or objection deals with similar looking logos or similar looking shapes -- that seems to me not a useful distinction? Maybe a difference in degree but not in kind IMO.
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  8. #381
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    When Siminoff or Derrington started making mandolins for Gibson, while designing their mandolins I'm sure they "copied the Gibson F-5 and probably even traced it". They just did it while working for the entity that owned the name at the time.
    That is true Jim. But certainly Gibson has a right to copy Gibson -- a right would not necessarily extent to other companies?
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    It seems a lot of people are confusing the politics with the product.
    I guess many of us are playing folk musik in order to escape to a better world, away from politics, and they want their instruments and their makers to reflect that sentiment. You thought you had bonded with simple, honest craftsmanship, but suddenly the very monster you were running away from tells you "I am your father". To sell your product, you have to understand your customers, or else there is no product.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Not saying they don't. I'm saying ever since at least the early 30's Gibson made F-5's in small numbers but continually strayed from what we call "Loar specs" until it got so bad as the 70's when they only had a superficial resemblance to the original. So just like other early builders they had to start from scratch to get back to making what mandolin buyers wanted.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community


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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Not surprising at all. Hope the eat crow on the rest

  16. #386
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    Ruling in EU General Court finds the Flying V body shape has “no demonstration of distinctive character”
    Logic here: it's not special enough to deserve protection

    ...that the similarity of the guitars could confuse buyers
    That reminds me of a schoolmate of mine - he had a black Höfner Les Paul shape guitar and he called it "the Gibson". And he pronounced it "Djibson"... That was in the 1970s, so fearing confusion in 2004 is just a bit late.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Only a Djibson is djood enough.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  19. #388
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    I hate to point out something, but here it goes:

    The GIBSON vs. DEAN case is old news. Gibson tried to hassle Dean and finally lost the case in 2018.

    That does not mean that it´s not worth mentioning... far from that.

    This case goes to show that you have to do your homework, when you want to take legal action.

    Jim Hilburn pointed it out nicely. Had Gibson followed Roger Siminov´s advice in around 1977 things (in the mando community) might have turned a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Only a Djibson is djood enough.
    When one looks at the old "Only A Gibson Is Good Enough" statement one has to see the wartime truth. Back then (1942 - 1945) Banner Gibsons were made and they are legendary instruments. I can truely claim that a banner Gibson Southerner Jumbo is a magical guitar.

    But were not talking about the past.

    Has anyone found it slightly awkward to hear MA talking about "playing authentic"? Does that cause anyone to think that Gibson is trying to take a marketing stab at the Martin "authentic" models? This was one of my impressions and among all the sour moments in that sad video this was one of the low points, not that I want to beat a dead horse.
    Olaf

  20. #389
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    I just stumbled on this a few minutes ago and was going to add a link here. You are really on the ball! I woudl think but don't know for sure, that this could only help Dean with their position.
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    I hate to point out something, but here it goes:

    The GIBSON vs. DEAN case is old news. Gibson tried to hassle Dean and finally lost the case in 2018.

    That does not mean that it´s not worth mentioning... far from that.

    This case goes to show that you have to do your homework, when you want to take legal action.

    Jim Hilburn pointed it out nicely. Had Gibson followed Roger Siminov´s advice in around 1977 things (in the mando community) might have turned a different way.



    When one looks at the old "Only A Gibson Is Good Enough" statement one has to see the wartime truth. Back then (1942 - 1945) Banner Gibsons were made and they are legendary instruments. I can truely claim that a banner Gibson Southerner Jumbo is a magical guitar.

    But were not talking about the past.

    Has anyone found it slightly awkward to hear MA talking about "playing authentic"? Does that cause anyone to think that Gibson is trying to take a marketing stab at the Martin "authentic" models? This was one of my impressions and among all the sour moments in that sad video this was one of the low points, not that I want to beat a dead horse.
    I don't know about the Martin Authentic line but I have a Golden Era 000-18 and it is incredible. But why would Gibson take a stab at those? To me, You either want a Gibson sound or a Martin Sound or Taylor or whomever but Martin has a sound all its own one a person either wants or doesn't. At least that is how it seems to me.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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  22. #391

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    EDIT: Oops, nevermind, it's already been posted (I forgot to refresh the page to check for new posts before posting).

  23. #392
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    Not saying they don't. I'm saying ever since at least the early 30's Gibson made F-5's in small numbers but continually strayed from what we call "Loar specs" until it got so bad as the 70's when they only had a superficial resemblance to the original. So just like other early builders they had to start from scratch to get back to making what mandolin buyers wanted.
    IMO, what really killed the F-5 at Gibson was the suspension mandolin production in 1940. When they tried in late 1948 to restart production there was (apparently) no one still working at the Kalamazoo factory who had ever made an F-5? And it seems the original F-5 plans were not available either? What happened next was an F-5 with the fret board glued to the top board like an F-4? It took Roger to get them back on track in the late 70s it seems.
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    IMO, what really killed the F-5 at Gibson was the suspension mandolin production in 1940. When they tried in late 1948 to restart production there was (apparently) no one still working at the Kalamazoo factory who had ever made an F-5? And it seems the original F-5 plans were not available either? What happened next was an F-5 with the fret board glued to the top board like an F-4? It took Roger to get them back on track in the late 70s it seems.
    Not exactly, no.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Not exactly, no.
    Well ok then what do you say is the best explanation? For sure mandolin production stopped in early 1940 and resumed late 1948? Yes? Also I'm pretty sure that the fret board was not elevated again until mid-1952. I had a '53 F-12 and the board was elevated but not like an pre-war instrument. I have seen a couple of 1950 F-models and they are built like an F-4.
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  26. #395

    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    There wasn't much demand yet in the early 50's. But what I keep harping on is that Gibson should have seen and anticipated the demand. Or else not complained when others started filling the demand.

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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Well ok then what do you say is the best explanation? For sure mandolin production stopped in early 1940 and resumed late 1948? Yes? Also I'm pretty sure that the fret board was not elevated again until mid-1952. I had a '53 F-12 and the board was elevated but not like an pre-war instrument. I have seen a couple of 1950 F-models and they are built like an F-4.
    Between 1940 and 1942 they still made mandolins like the A 50,also F5s, in those years listed they shipped 35 of them,,the last F5 was shipped in June 1943,production stopped during the war and started again in 1950...

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  30. #397
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Did Gibson go bankrupt in the late 60s ? After that norlin took over?

  31. #398
    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    When one looks at the old "Only A Gibson Is Good Enough" statement one has to see the wartime truth. Back then (1942 - 1945) Banner Gibsons were made and they are legendary instruments. I can truely claim that a banner Gibson Southerner Jumbo is a magical guitar.
    In a discussion with a very highly regarded luthier, his take was the adage should have read: "Only a Gibson Isn't Glued Enough".

    Ryk
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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Yes there were outstanding F-5's built in 1941-42! They were built a bit heavy but yeah man some really good F-5's! Not as gnarly loud as the Loars and Ferns but tone full and jazzy, even the late 30's the necks were a bit underset so with a neck set they get it done!----I'm a fan!

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    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson threatening the mandolin and guitar luthier community

    Interesting reading over at TalkBass.com, a thread similar to this one.

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