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Thread: Source for f style worm over tuners

  1. #1
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Source for f style worm over tuners

    I need to replace some worn out nickel Waverly tuners on a 34 Gibson that are worm over. Does anyone know where some are available? I’ve looked with no success. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Short of finding an original set, here are the options for worm over F style tuners.

    Gotoh makes them. Make sure they turn in the correct direction.

    Grover makes them but they turn backwards.

    Rubner makes them but they aren't always available. The stem and the worm will be black.

    You can still find older sets of Schallers that are worm over. I haven't seen any new sets of Schallers that are worm over

    There are Kluson "50's style" worm overs available.

    Alessi might make you a set.

    Stewmac won't make you a set.

    If you want a link to any of these let me know. I've been fighting a worm over issue for a few years.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  4. #3
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    More information here.

    And even more information here. Some of this is outdated as the Grover's have changed and the Schaller's may or may not be available.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  6. #4

    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Vintage stuff shows up on eBay. Many mandolins are parted out by repairmen. But, if you are in pursuit of something, I would recommend checking several times a day for new listings.

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    David Harvey and myself have been trying to get stew-mac to make them as Waverly and Golden age have the exact replica bump end plates for guitar restorations "exact plain and engraved"! The plain on the A's and some F models and the engraved bump end pearl button that would be on the F-5 of the late 20's-30's! There would be a market for the worm over gear as there is nothing out there vintage style! Original stuff is pretty hard to find, F model stuff for sure and the fancy F-5 about impossible to find an original set!

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  10. #6
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Yeah, you aren't the only people trying to get that done... for years.

    You and I had this conversation a while back
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  12. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    The worm over Ruber tuners look almost right except the black finish. That and the fact that they are out of stock a whole lot of the time.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  14. #8
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    I know Mike a lot of people want/need these replicas! They would sell I have no doubt about that!

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  16. #9
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    I can't find a recent picture of the back of Sam's peghead on Hoss but those worm over tuners look suspiciously like modern Waverly tuners.
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    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  18. #10
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I can't find a recent picture of the back of Sam's peghead on Hoss but those worm over tuners look suspiciously like modern Waverly tuners.
    The tuners sure do, Mike!

  19. #11
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Well, my customer has decided to go with some gold Gotoh worm over gears from Elderly. Now I have to get a James t/p with "The Gibson" engraved to match. He's got a real nice 34 f12 conversion that he's never been able to tune because of the tuners. I did everything I could to the old Waverly tuners and polished the worm and post gear with valve grinding compound and it improved it a lot, but not enough to make it your veryday player.

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  21. #12
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    I seem to recall that in the early days Stewmac offered more versions of the Waverly F style tuners. I'm probably imagining that. Either that or someone simply reversed a set and Sam just tunes it backwards or perhaps they actually made a set just for him.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  23. #13
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    There is certainly a good market for these. I wish someone would step up and make them. The customer has such a nice mandolin that needs this style tuners. The peghead veneer is original and redrilling is out of the question.

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  25. #14
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Hey Skip, the 34 F-12 tuners are the same as an F-5 of the period, My original 35 F-12 has the worm over engraved pearl button set! I know the 29-32 F-5 with the 39 re-neck that's at Carters was Dawgs at some point down the line and that has a newer set of Waverly worm over gear tuners they made for him? Stew Mac has the correct plates they just need to reconfigure them for mandolin!
    WHY O WHY don't they have them made! Why doesn't the original set stay in tune for the 12? Are the plate holes too worn? I have a set of F-7 tuners that are plain but worm over gear? Celluloid buttons? Have some of the same but metal button-later period, PM me, They are rare and not cheap to me anyway.

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  27. #15
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Nicolo Alessi will make you a wonderful set with the worm over configuration, but he cannot get the actual worm gear in the opposite configuration from his supplier. They will look correct, but you will need to turn them opposite, as was done for this 1927 F4 (with sweet snakewood buttons!).

    The old style Schaller machines come in both worm over and worm under configurations and they have the added benefit of being able to disassemble them and reconfigure in any combination you like. That is the best solution for many of the snakehead issues rather than plugging and drilling even more holes in an already fragile old headstock...

    Waverly makes all kinds of specialty machines, but not for everyone. They are probably the most difficult company to deal with if you are just an average Joe trying to problem solve. I once had an appointment at their shop, drove to Bozeman from North Carolina and could see them looking at me through the window as I pounded on the locked shop door, but even then they would not open it. That was the last time I dealt with them and have been a happy Alessi customer every since....
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  29. #16
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by grandcanyonminstrel View Post
    Nicolo Alessi will make you a wonderful set with the worm over configuration, but he cannot get the actual worm gear in the opposite configuration from his supplier.
    Are you sure about that? All his guitar tuners use worm in opposite direction. I guess the basic dimension of the gears is the same for all his tuners. Actually, it's the regular mandolin "worm under" tuners that are different from the rest of the world (guitars etc.).
    Adrian

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  31. #17
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    https://www.guitar-repair.com/
    Skip, it's possible Steve might have, or know where some tuners are. He rehabs/sells such things.

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  33. #18
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    So, we have decided to go with Gotoh tuners from Elderly and save the original hardware. It should make a great everyday player. Thanks for everyone’s help!

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  35. #19
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    FYI, I just noticed Rubner "worm over" tuners in classifieds...
    Adrian

  36. #20
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    FYI, I just noticed Rubner "worm over" tuners in classifieds...
    Yeah, I saw those too; after I had ordered the Gotoh tuners.

  37. #21
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    That seems to happen here. Something is being discussed and the item shows up in the classifieds

    I bought a set of the Rubner tuners when the worm overs came out. I can't get past the black. They look to be excellent beyond that. There is a small bolt/nut/whatever they use to hold the button on. I thought it was simply decorative but another member showed where they could be removed and a screw could be used in it's place. They are so close to being right.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    So I am not an equipment geek per say... what is the significance of "worm over gears" ?

  39. #23
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Source for f style worm over tuners

    Sometime in the mid-1920's someone figured out that having the worm gear on a set of tuners above the cog would cause the string to pull the cog into the worm gear instead of away from it and the industry changed. It should be a good thing to have a more positive contact between them. To be honest from what I've seen over the years it didn't make a whole lot of difference. Good tuners installed correctly work in either configuration. The late Paul Hostetter's site has this page that illustrates the difference between worm over and worm under. The problem arises when you attempt to install tuners with one orientation into a headstock drilled for the other orientation. At times you can't turn the tuner buttons on F style tuners because they are too close to the scroll. Look at the pictures Paul was so kind to provide.

    That's worm over on the left and worm under on the right.
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    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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