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Thread: cnc and or router pantograph

  1. #1
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default cnc and or router pantograph

    I am building, well, preparing to build a 3d router pantograph. Would those of you with a router pantograph share some pics of your set up and what you do and don't like about it? I am tossed up on using wood or 8020 to build the framework. I think if I use 8020 and plan well I could move into the CNC world at some point reusing some of this build. I think I would use a dedicated router pack and drive again because if I plan well I could reutilize this part in the next step to CNC at some point. Any advice or pics very appreciated. Thanks, everyone!
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  2. #2
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    I am building, well, preparing to build a 3d router pantograph. Would those of you with a router pantograph share some pics of your set up and what you do and don't like about it? I am tossed up on using wood or 8020 to build the framework. I think if I use 8020 and plan well I could move into the CNC world at some point reusing some of this build. I think I would use a dedicated router pack and drive again because if I plan well I could reutilize this part in the next step to CNC at some point. Any advice or pics very appreciated. Thanks, everyone!
    The price difference between making aluminum extrusion pantograph and CNC capable of routing same objects is nearly negligible these days. Remember that you need twice as large pantograph (plus some margin between the original on copy) than comparable CNC and that implies you need stronger structure to get similar stiffness of construction. In CNC you need some drive (ballscrews, nuts, steppers and some controller and few other things) that doesn't cost much these days. Actually you can get used set from someone who upgraded his machine for little dough.
    The main difference is complexity of the job and learning curve with CNC. But both of these are not a big deal for a guy with some common sense and ability to research internet (tons of information out there much like on MC about mandolins) and ask other folks on CNC forums.
    Of course you can buy older pantograph for nearly nothing if it matches your need as they are becoming obsolete with advent of cheap (but usable) CNC routers.
    One of my friends built CNC out of plywood (THICK) and common set of stepper motors and controller and it has worked well for simple work on guitar parts (rosette routing, inlays, bridges, fret slots etc).
    Adrian

  3. #3
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    I should pop into some CNC forums. I honestly hadn't considered that and browsing this morning the parts won't be as terribly priced as I thought. I will dig in more thanks HOGO!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  4. #4

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    I built my first CNC machine using 80/20 and plans from Nate at Fine Line Automation. Made some modifications, made some parts for cable carriers, etc. Used Mach3. Total cost all in was well under $5k, including all software (much of which is inexpensive, free or open source these days) and two Porter-Cable routers because I used one up.
    I recently rebuilt it to be much more capable and now it runs off of Mesa hardware and LinuxCNC. It's now a 27.5" x 49" x 11" machine that can rapid at 1200 inches a minute (HAAS speeds). Total cost is around $6k now.
    Of course that's not counting my time. Time falls into a few categories:

    1. Learning how to use CAD: I had university courses in this, and spent about 60 hours a week in university doing CAD for school and freelance projects for 5 years. Then I did architectural design and product development, which was CAD-heavy, for five years. Then I taught biomedical product development and ran a CNC machine shop for research and education for ten years.
    After all that, I can genuinely say that making a guitar neck to get a good result 100% by CNC is the hardest thing I've ever done. So hard, I would argue that you shouldn't bother. You can make a lot of necks in the time it'd take you to learn CAD alone.

    2. Learning how to program: this is another couple thousand hours, and it's not fun when you are learning because your work, your machine, and your health are all in danger until you really know what you're doing. I can now make parts 100% of the time which come out "right" on the first try, but it was not always like that. Until fairly recently. This is not like 3d printing, programming is not trivial.

    3. Learning how to machine: If you are not a pro machinist, a lot of the concepts inherent in workholding and work rigidity will be foreign. A lot of it is common to woodworking, sure, but a lot of it is not "Home Depot" stuff. Things like datums, indexing, degrees of freedom, locating parts for second operations, etc. It's all High School geometry, sure. But was High School geometry all that fun?


    So... you have limited time here on Earth. Do you want to spend your time building instruments? Then build instruments. If you want to get into CNC without investing too much time, buy a CNC shark or other bogus POS for too much money and make inlays. It will still be better investment towards your goal of making instruments. Unfortunately, making plates is one of the more complicated things to do on CNC. Some of the cheaper machines have probes you can plug in and it'll scan, sort of, your existing plate, and then it'll make a copy for you, sort of.

    If you want to spend 2-3 years of your life, and have a machine that does everything exactly the way you want and ain't nobody's going to do it like yours does, build yourself a LinuxCNC machine from scratch and revel in not ever having to call someone else for help (but also realize, there IS nobody else who can help - lots of forum posts from people trying to be helpful, but 99% of those are people mutually scratching their heads). I'm the kind of guy who doesn't call the IT guy at work, I just fix my stuff because it's faster. If that's how you like to work and that's how you want it to be, a scratch build may make sense. Just be aware that it will NEVER be cheaper if you count in your time, and it will never be faster. You're just choosing to build machines instead of instruments for some portion of the time you have available to work on this stuff.

    Fusion360 has full parametric CAD and CAM system which used to cost $10,000 separately, free if you make less than $100,000 (so free for all luthiers, muhahaha).

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  6. #5
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    I'm the kind of guy who doesn't call the IT guy at work
    I am the IT guy at work. I fix the problems people that don't call me try and fix themselves. Business has been booming for years.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  8. #6
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    I built my first CNC machine using 80/20 and plans from Nate at Fine Line Automation. Made some modifications, made some parts for cable carriers, etc. Used Mach3. Total cost all in was well under $5k, including all software (much of which is inexpensive, free or open source these days) and two Porter-Cable routers because I used one up.
    I recently rebuilt it to be much more capable and now it runs off of Mesa hardware and LinuxCNC. It's now a 27.5" x 49" x 11" machine that can rapid at 1200 inches a minute (HAAS speeds). Total cost is around $6k now.
    Of course that's not counting my time. Time falls into a few categories:

    1. Learning how to use CAD: I had university courses in this, and spent about 60 hours a week in university doing CAD for school and freelance projects for 5 years. Then I did architectural design and product development, which was CAD-heavy, for five years. Then I taught biomedical product development and ran a CNC machine shop for research and education for ten years.
    After all that, I can genuinely say that making a guitar neck to get a good result 100% by CNC is the hardest thing I've ever done. So hard, I would argue that you shouldn't bother. You can make a lot of necks in the time it'd take you to learn CAD alone.

    2. Learning how to program: this is another couple thousand hours, and it's not fun when you are learning because your work, your machine, and your health are all in danger until you really know what you're doing. I can now make parts 100% of the time which come out "right" on the first try, but it was not always like that. Until fairly recently. This is not like 3d printing, programming is not trivial.

    3. Learning how to machine: If you are not a pro machinist, a lot of the concepts inherent in workholding and work rigidity will be foreign. A lot of it is common to woodworking, sure, but a lot of it is not "Home Depot" stuff. Things like datums, indexing, degrees of freedom, locating parts for second operations, etc. It's all High School geometry, sure. But was High School geometry all that fun?


    So... you have limited time here on Earth. Do you want to spend your time building instruments? Then build instruments. If you want to get into CNC without investing too much time, buy a CNC shark or other bogus POS for too much money and make inlays. It will still be better investment towards your goal of making instruments. Unfortunately, making plates is one of the more complicated things to do on CNC. Some of the cheaper machines have probes you can plug in and it'll scan, sort of, your existing plate, and then it'll make a copy for you, sort of.

    If you want to spend 2-3 years of your life, and have a machine that does everything exactly the way you want and ain't nobody's going to do it like yours does, build yourself a LinuxCNC machine from scratch and revel in not ever having to call someone else for help (but also realize, there IS nobody else who can help - lots of forum posts from people trying to be helpful, but 99% of those are people mutually scratching their heads). I'm the kind of guy who doesn't call the IT guy at work, I just fix my stuff because it's faster. If that's how you like to work and that's how you want it to be, a scratch build may make sense. Just be aware that it will NEVER be cheaper if you count in your time, and it will never be faster. You're just choosing to build machines instead of instruments for some portion of the time you have available to work on this stuff.

    Fusion360 has full parametric CAD and CAM system which used to cost $10,000 separately, free if you make less than $100,000 (so free for all luthiers, muhahaha).
    The learning the program is where I need a lot of work the rest is what I do. I work with automated equipment. My job but I do not program the machines. I would have to learn from square one. The last real programming I did was in DOS how many hundreds of years ago! I fully understand that is the hurdle and could be quite time intensive. One of the reasons I was working on a pantograph. Other then the build which is part of my hobby enjoyment, I like to build stuff, there is no programming to use or learn no computer motors or any other axis related controllers needed. Parts costs aside I need to decide which direction I want to go. Leaning towards pantograph and maybe on the side study some of the programmings. I do like learning this stuff but time is limited.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  9. #7

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    My first cnc router i built myself 15yrs ago, i later sold that for more than it cost me to build it, i now have three cnc routers in my shop and a duplicator, i do not have a pantograph, so cannot comment on that.

    Cad programming is the hardest thing to learn, it can be easy or complicated, depends on how you view things, the duplicator on the other hand is awesome, you simply trace what exists and wolla there is a new one, awesome for doing carved backs etc.

    Steve

  10. #8
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    Steve, I think pantograph is the same as duplicator in this thread (though pantograph can describe other devices as well).
    I try not to underestimate other folks. I am also one of the guys who doesn't call service and repair things myself (including dishwasher, washing machine, computers, whatever breaks). But there are many more other folks capable of doing things well out of their field even though thay don't appear as such. One of my friends a guitar maker finished woodworking high school and left university in second year for some job in UK. I lost touch with him and only heard of him again few years later when our guitar player told me there's a guy who makes nice guitars in the nearby town. So we went ahead to visit him and foud out it was this guy gone to UK who returned and set up a workshop from the saved money. He foung a job in guitar maker in UK and learned few tricks and they had a CNC so he made one himself (out of plywood and with some help from CNC discussion boards). He uses it for simpler jobs like bridges overlays inlays, but I've seen a LP body he cut (but he wouldn't do one again as his machine is very slow for such jobs). I believe the shared wisdom and bits of experience shared on internet is vast and if one knows how to find the good verified information in the heap he can do anything and progress much faster than traditional schools offer.
    I can tell that my first real 3D modelling project was F-5 mandolin in Rhino (I never ever did anything in 3D befor that, I had good starting 2D drawings already in my computer though). It took me 3-4 months to learn basics of Rhino and at the same time complete 3D model that is as close as it gets to the real thing. I've got CNC in works (stopped working on it for some time as I have family with three small kids and they need the time more than the machine) hopefully I will finish it some day (it's rather heavy customized steel design and requires heavy machining of many parts - not as simple as some Al extrusion machines of DIY makers).
    Adrian

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  12. #9

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    I built a duplicator years ago. It worked -- sort of. Now its all just a pile of parts. Which ever path you choose, I found deals on ebay for linear bearings to be quite worth looking into. If I were to pursue this again, I'd buy a quality entry level CNC, learn the process to the limits of machine, and then build a full size machine from scratch.

  13. #10

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    2 years ago I decide to build my own CNC
    I start from scratch , in fact I use an old door which come from an old telephone cabin like this one
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    I cut this door in 2 parts , one part became the table and X support , the higher part became the Y and Z support
    this support is in aluminum , enough strait & enough strong for the job.
    I have build a first version
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    and then rebuilt some new pieces with the machine like this
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    I bought stepper motors , ballscrews and electronic ( I don't remember exactly the total price , but not soo much )

    After that I learn how to use 3D software ,
    I use freecad for modeling
    freecad for create contour tool path
    Pycam for create tool path on surface like mandolin top
    Camotics for path simulation
    Meshlab for some STL simplifications
    LinuxCNC on the machine herself
    I spend lot lot lot of time in my sofa for understand how all these software works , but I must say now , I never will return back
    This machine is so precise , so usefull that now I'm really addict .

    Example: with the latest instrument build :
    1- make the mold from 4 or 5 pieces of MDF
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    2- TOP
    carving the top outside , then the top inside with CNC
    then finish by hands the top tickness , after that , open Fholes with CNC
    3- BACK
    carving the back outside , then inside , then finish by hand the back tickness
    4- fretboard:
    make the compound radius with the CNC
    then mark the frets placement , cut the MOP inlay , cut the fretboard contour all with CNC
    5- Neck :
    cut the truss rod channel
    cut the peghead contour
    open the tuners holes
    cut the heel of the neck
    cut the MOP logo and insert it in the peghead
    6-
    cut the bridge
    cut a part of the taipiece from brass
    mark the strings placements on the nut and idem on the bridge nut

    In fact , if my machine was out of order , I can't do nothing !!!
    BTW have a look to that brandnew tenor guitar
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    Last edited by french guy; Jun-04-2019 at 6:33am.

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  15. #11

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    some more pictures

    LinuxCNC screen during carving compound radius

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    and the machine working
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    freecad 3D top
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    Logo pearl cutting
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #12

    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    I like how you can angle your spindle. I am planning to build something like that so I can do sanding on my machine. Then parts will come off without any tearout, which is a big problem in spruce.

  17. #13
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: cnc and or router pantograph

    Listen to Jean. If you are a creative guy who likes to invent design and create things then you would become addict once you find out all the possibilities ... (endless)
    Adrian

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