Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    589

    Default practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I've been playing about 7 months now and have made a lot of progress. I have been working through Bert Casey's book. For each song, there is a backing track that plays the tune at 5 speeds from 50 to 100bpm. I am finding I can learn new songs fairly quickly and get into the middle of that range but I am spending a lot of time trying to attain the fastest speed with very slow progress. Its also very tedious. So, my question is would I be better of moving on and learning new tunes and techniques or should I continue to slog away to get to the speed?

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    If it were me I would continue to learn new tunes. Everything helps you get better and learning more will be more fun, more fun play more. Be sure to come back to each tune daily and spend some time on it. Just my opinion.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  3. #3
    Confused... or?
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Over the Hudson & thru the woods from NYC
    Posts
    2,927

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Pushing to play faster, on its own, is often an exercise in frustration, sort of like lifting weights that are too heavy to lift... it's just not gonna happen. At worst, it causes you to "practice" and engrain technique that doesn't contribute to speed plus accuracy and fluidity, and that's truly counter-productive.

    Learning new tunes, OTOH, is an exercise in muscle-memory + control of all those digits & frets, which does contribute to the eventual buildup of speed. (Disclaimer: Said by a guy who doesn't put high value on playing real fast!)

    BTW: While seven months feels like a long time right now, it'll seem like the blink of an eye in seven years, by which time you'll have put a sizeable bite into the requisite "10,000 hours". Personally, I'd rather enjoy the journey than anxiously count the mile markers!
    - Ed

    "Then one day we weren't as young as before
    Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
    But by all those roads, my friend, we've travelled down
    I'm a better man for just the knowin' of you."
    - Ian Tyson

  4. The following members say thank you to EdHanrahan for this post:


  5. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bothell (Seattle), WA
    Posts
    207

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    After far too many years as an intermediate player, I have to believe working on repertoire ultimately allows you to play faster. For me at least, pushing for speed was counterproductive. My friends know I manage lists of tunes and songs. Constantly practicing from my list while always adding new entries seems to expand my repertoire and speed (eventually) just comes with it.
    You can't get there from here.

  6. #5
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    One question: are you just working on these tunes by yourself or do you get out to jam sessions or play with some other folks? I would highly suggest that you get out and do that assuming you are not. There is no substitution to playing with others.

    We have a few old time jams around here that welcome beginners. I have also been to some slow jams. If you find yourself at a speed that is beyond your capability in a jam situation then play chords or every other note. Eventually you will attain necessary speed. If nothing else you need patience. You will get there.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  7. The following members say thank you to Jim Garber for this post:


  8. #6
    Mandolin Player trodgers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southeast Iowa, U.S.A.
    Posts
    181

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I see speed as a result of proficiency; it's something that isn't so much learned as it is acquired. I'd continue to learn new material, focusing on playing cleanly and practicing good technique. The ability to play faster will come. I like to play scales and multiple course runs, starting slowly and building tempo as I go. When I start to lose clarity, that's the time to back off the tempo a hair, really focus on what's happening and spend some quality time working it out. Sometimes its transitioning from one course to another, or shifting position up/down the neck. Work it slowly until its smooth and perfect.

    It sounds like you've done well for 7 months of playing. I spent my first few years just exploring rhythm and chords.
    “Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken for granted until progress began to do away with them. Now we face the question whether a still higher ‘standard of living’ is worth its cost in things natural, wild and free.” -- Aldo Leopold

  9. The following members say thank you to trodgers for this post:


  10. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    589

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Jim, I took a Pete Wernick jam class this past winter and that was very helpful. Now that summer is here (sort off) I have a lot less time. I probably wont get back to playing jams until the fall but I certainly intend to. I also have a couple of Pete's jam DVDs which I use

  11. #8

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    10 bpm at a crack is quite a jump. I'd get a metronome and ditch the backing tracks and advance two or three beats per minute at a time. When you've advanced 10 bpm, play the backing track again. I'd also be playing scale exercises and arpeggios to a metronome.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  12. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    589

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    10 bpm at a crack is quite a jump. I'd get a metronome and ditch the backing tracks and advance two or three beats per minute at a time. When you've advanced 10 bpm, play the backing track again. I'd also be playing scale exercises and arpeggios to a metronome.
    Thanks. I had considered using a software program to make speed changes more gradual (I use Music Speed Changer).

  13. #10

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I`m over 4 years in now, and I have to practice speed for it`s own sake, but most practice is below my max rate. If I push speed to the point of bad playing, I find it reinforces bad playing, so I tend to push the speed envelope only a little at a time, and yet my speed is consistenly improving.

    Put another way, practicing for speed alone did more harm than good. Your practice should focus on accuracy.

    But if I go a few weeks without practicing at higher tempos, the speed declines, but it can be recovered much easier than it was originally learned.

    I learned this the hard way mostly.

    A trick I find works is to play the same song through 2-3 times each day, starting slow, and increasing speed each time, but avoid spending much time at a speed where your playing breaks down.

    Easier songs are better for pushing speed too.

  14. The following members say thank you to kurth83 for this post:


  15. #11
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Peace and Love
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I don’t play fast without making mistakes, but one thing I think that can help is chunking. The idea is to play just 5 or 9 eighth notes, but to play them as a short burst of a movement. You wait for 20 seconds as you concentrate on the flow of movements involved, then you act.
    Another is practice tremolo, there’s a great vid from a woman on Ytube rockgirl I think, her name.
    Another could be playing ‘air’ mandolin. Just move you left hand without the mandolin, again thinking about the total movement.
    One of the difficult ones for me is left and right hand coordination, try hammer-ons with metronome but no right picking.
    Good luck.

  16. The following members say thank you to Simon DS for this post:


  17. #12

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    What is your ultimate goal? I'd rather play tastefully like Andrew Marlin, than rip like some of the Bluegrass shredders.

    Who am I kidding? I want both.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  18. #13
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Bad taste comes in both slow and quick tempos. We’d like the judgment on the taste side and the ability on the speed side.

    Or at least I would.

    I practice both exercises and songs, more exercises since I think they have broader application and are focused. I’m late to the game so I’m trying to gain broad skills rather than a repertoire. I have a little of both.

    Ymmv
    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow Manouche
    Arrow Jazzbo
    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Gibson F5L
    Gibson A-4
    Ratliff CountryBoy A

  19. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGinNJ View Post
    I've been playing about 7 months now and have made a lot of progress. I have been working through Bert Casey's book. For each song, there is a backing track that plays the tune at 5 speeds from 50 to 100bpm. I am finding I can learn new songs fairly quickly and get into the middle of that range but I am spending a lot of time trying to attain the fastest speed with very slow progress. Its also very tedious. So, my question is would I be better of moving on and learning new tunes and techniques or should I continue to slog away to get to the speed?
    Yes. Work on both you'll find that one helps the other. After a certain point ( when you aquire muscle memory) speed is mental.

  20. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    1,140

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    After a certain point ( when you aquire muscle memory) speed is mental.
    This is pretty big for me. I feel that to play well at a tempo, I have to be able to "think" at that tempo. I need to know the tune so well that I'm not thinking about what notes I need to play or what fingering I need to use, but instead can just stay in the moment and concentrate on playing "well" instead of playing "fast".
    Mitch Russell

  21. #16
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    When I see folks (on any instrument) playing for speed, without very much clarity, accuracy or melodic comparability for the song being played - I see it as nothing short of amateurish.

    Play well first - speed (if necessary) comes later.

  22. #17
    Confused... or?
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Over the Hudson & thru the woods from NYC
    Posts
    2,927

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by onassis View Post
    ... know the tune so well that I'm not thinking about what notes I need to play or what fingering I need to use, but instead can just stay in the moment and concentrate on playing "well" instead of playing "fast".
    VERY well said!

    When I first got into mandolin jamming, and later mandolin & guitar in a mandolin orchestra, even after decades of rock & folk that I grew up with, it sometimes felt like "jumping onto a moving train" (which itself is a whole 'nuther story!) To some extent, I'm still working to internalize the new repertoire to some point close to the old one.
    - Ed

    "Then one day we weren't as young as before
    Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
    But by all those roads, my friend, we've travelled down
    I'm a better man for just the knowin' of you."
    - Ian Tyson

  23. #18
    Gibson F5L Gibson A5L
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,526
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Speed is a process just like anything else. Learn songs and tunes using good technique. Play with relaxed hands with your fingers near the strings. When you know a song or tune so well you no longer have to think about how to play it you will be approaching "playing at speed" . Continuing to play you will continue to increase your speed. Make sure you have a well set up instrument , find other folks to play with and carry on. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

  24. #19
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Co. Mayo, Ireland
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I think it's possible to do both - they're not mutually exclusive. I would set aside some tunes that you know really well and that are also a little more straightforward as regards arrangements and work on speed using them. Practice in front of a mirror and focus on relaxing when playing and also economy of motion - unnecessary motion in either your left or right hand will rob you of speed.
    2018 Girouard Concert oval A
    2015 JP "Whitechapel" tenor banjo
    2018 Frank Tate tenor guitar
    1969 Martin 00-18




    my Youtube channel

  25. #20
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    2,335

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Playing with good tone, note clarity, proper timing, and dynamics are ALL important. And these things are not mutually exclusive, as others have -- very correctly! -- pointed out. Furthermore, you don't necessarily sacrifice any one of them by working on another one. You can improve on all fronts, in fact, and should not seek to sacrifice one at the altar of another!

    My own experience is that the learning process can be frustratingly discontinuous. Lots of others have reported a similar experience, so I know that I'm not alone in experiencing this! Sometimes, progress occurs fairly steadily with practice. But not always. More often than not, I would describe my learning as reaching a successive set of plateaus, each of which is encountered for a varying length of time. I may get 'stuck' on a particular plateau, despite regular practice, for a time. Then, I will experience a (fairly sudden) 'breakthrough,' and make rapid progress on some particular front, be it related to speed, repertoire, tone, or whatever. So I have a series of small victories, punctuated by periods where I just seem to be foundering. But that's just the way it is! In the long run, I've made enormous progress, with numerous minor breakthroughs as I pass from plateau to plateau. You just have to keep at it, rather relentlessly -- but pleasurably! -- in the confident knowledge that it will come.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sblock For This Useful Post:


  27. #21
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by atsunrise View Post
    Another is practice tremolo,

    One of the difficult ones for me is left and right hand coordination,
    There is no functional difference between tremolo and fast picking, except that a tremolo is on a single pitch and a rapid run with alternate picking can include many pitches.

    Thus that connection between left hand and right hand is essential.

    first, you have to develop a picking technique that can play a tremolo.

    Next, that tremolo picking needs to be adapted to playing scales, runs, etc.

    But if you can't play a good tremolo on one pitch, you definitely cannot play a fast scalar run with clear picking.

    So work on your tremolo - it's a essential to mandolin playing style. Of course, I'm an Sicilian-American, so tremolo comes right after mother's milk, olive oil and garlic.

  28. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  29. #22
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Playing with good tone, note clarity, proper timing, and dynamics are ALL important.
    I appreciate your mention of dynamics.

    That includes playing delicate and softly! So many players only have 2 dynamics, loud and louder. Or in banjo terms, stun and kill.

  30. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  31. #23
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeZito View Post
    When I see folks (on any instrument) playing for speed, without very much clarity, accuracy or melodic comparability for the song being played - I see it as nothing short of amateurish.

    Play well first - speed (if necessary) comes later.
    If a person does not have clarity on fast runs, then they are not really playing those passages correctly, amateur or supposedly pro.

  32. #24
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Peace and Love
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    I want to thanks all you guys (again), I’ve made a big jump this week with three different things mainly from ideas from this thread:

    I took a repertoire book of about 50 tunes, a lot of jigs, and played each one (painfully) slowly with metronome through about three times each, so slowly I cant make any mistakes, and forcing myself to concentrate at a moderate level without distraction by changing the tunes often, thinking about tone and sort of ‘Tai Chi’.
    I’ve been playing accompaniment to The Stranglers and some other punk songs BUT I have used mostly single notes within the different keys all played as very fast UPSTROKES the idea being to get the up and down strokes symmetrical as a right hand movement -wow!
    The other, and I’m still trying to figure it out, is more of a question. I’m wondering about pick speed between string plucks, does the pick accelerate to get into position (a sort of staccato movement, like a jerking tremolo movement) or is it more efficient to move at a sort of average speed?
    So, if you are playing one note a second, do you pluck a string, then right hand moves really fast to get to a position above the next string only to hover there waiting to pluck the next ? It’s the different distances between strings.

  33. #25
    Registered User Carl Robin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    202

    Default Re: practice advice: speed vs repetoire

    Learning new tunes, and practicing those I already know go together for me. The more tunes you learn, the more patterns common to many tunes get built into muscle memory, so it gets easier. Picking up the speed has two components in my mind: familiarity with the tune, and the ability to relax while playing it. Trying hard to play fast builds tension, and his prevents an increase in tempo. Noticing tension, and intentionally dispelling it on the fly is another new skill to practice. Focusing in this way can be learned when you are just at the edge of your current ability, and pushing for just a tiny bit more speed. At least that is my experience.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •