Advice on Sinking Top and Bowed Neck on Vintage F-5 Loar Copy

[Professor PT]

It’s been over ten years since I have posted. Getting back into mandolin and recently bought this F-5 Loar copy. However, it has some issues. There is a bowed neck, which I have not tried to remedy with the truss rod yet. And the top looks sunken. There is a split in the top by the tailpiece. How do I proceed? Is it ok to adjust the truss rod without affecting the sinking? I am thinking it should be ok, but I don’t want to mess something up. Also, from what I have read, sinking tops are for the most part not fixable. Anything I can do to help? Mandolin was made in 1980 and played hard by the previous owner and obviously not babied. From what I have been able to research, the maker’s Loar copies can sell for quite a bit. So, there’s that consideration. If I get the neck adjusted, I’m hoping the tone will make up for the sinking. Not sure how much of a hit this will be in terms of value...all things are relative I know.

[Professor PT]

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[rcc56]

Your instrument needs to be inspected by a qualified repairman. There may be loose braces.

Adjusting the truss rod will not cause the top to sink. However, the bow in the neck appears to be severe, and adjusting the rod may not straighten it completely. The crack can be glued.

[pops1]

As rcc56 says the truss rod can be adjusted without changing top issues. It may take some time adjusting over a period of weeks to get it straight, it may involve removal of the fingerboard and plane the neck. Having someone qualified look will tell more than pic's in this case. A light and a mirror inside for instance.

[William Smith]

Looks like you need a neck set for sure, I wouldn't try the rod as it needs way more, your top is messed up, it's a nice mandolin from what I see and in need of a really good luthier, there are many here? Who originally built it? Maybe they can fix it?

[Professor PT]

The builder is no longer with us. Marion Kirk.

[Professor PT]

[Professor PT]

Even as is, with old strings, it sounds great. Looks great. Just don’t have a ton of money to put into it...don’t know how much the repairs would be...

[Professor PT]

[rcc56]

A repairman would have to have the instrument in hand to give you a fair estimate. It might need only a little work, it might need a lot. There is only so much that we can tell from pictures.

I would hope there is someone in southern Cal. capable of working on this instrument. If not, Alan Perlman in the SF bay area is qualified.

[Professor PT]

Thanks...any rec’s on good luthiers in SoCal from anyone here would be appreciated. There is a local shop I have used for smaller jobs, but this would likely require someone with much more experience working on mandolins. I may have them scope it out to see if the braces are loose, but I don’t think they have worked much on higher end mandolins...

[CES]

Are you within striking distance of Gryphon? Looks like a very nice mandolin, but baby needs some attention, for sure...

[MikeEdgerton]

Run it by Gary Vessel in Modesto. If he can't do it I'm sure he'll be able to point you to someone that can.

http://www.thomasandvessel.com/

A few of Marion's mandolins have sold over the years. It's worth fixing.

[William Smith]

Oh yes that's a nice mandolin, I wouldn't play it right now, take off the strings to relieve the tension "the top sag and crack would worry me big time!" and Mike beat me to it, Gary Vessel all the way, He's done some things for me and his work is very impressive! He is also very reasonable on prices I think. Great guy to work with and I personally think his stuff he builds is top shelf! He's one of the best IMHO.

[Marty Jacobson]

Counterpoint: there's a difference between sinkING and sunken tops. I know some builders whose instruments look like that from day one (minus the crack of course). If you don't think it's moving, then it's probably been just like it is for years. I don't see any urgent need to slack strings or anything. If the structure is failing, then you will see big changes - for example, if you can leave it overnight and it's still perfectly in tune in the morning, I would think that, while it might need repair to get it optimally playable, it's probably stable, crack'n'all.

[rcc56]

Scenario 1: Top is stable and braces are tight, truss rod is working well and straightens the neck completely, frets are level and tight, shoot a little glue into the crack; $100. Best case scenario.

Scenario 2: Top is stable, truss rod is working, fingerboard needs to be planed and re-fretted, glue the crack; ~$500.

Scenario 3: Loose braces, fingerboard has to be removed and neck straightened, possible neck reset, complete set-up, etc.; $800 - $1200. Worst case scenario.

We hope that this one is closer to scenario 1 than scenario 3.

[Professor PT]

Thanks for that info...I was wondering about cost. I had no idea of the ballpark. This actually helps a lot. I didn’t pay a lot for the mandolin, so seems like it will be feasible for me to put money into repairing it vs just trying to sell as is. If it was in the thousands, it would be a tougher decision. I’m hoping for the least expensive scenario of course. From what I can tell, I believe the top is stable. What I think happened was the previous owner put it in the case a long time ago without relieving the tension, thus the bow. It holds pitch and intonation is good, so that’s a good sign I would think. I lowered the bridge last night so it was more playable. The tone is really incredible. Best I have heard...have not played a Loar but have played some other high end mandos.

[Larry Simonson]

I might worry about fixing the instrument but breaking its incredible tone. ???

[Greg Mirken]

The center seam split and especially the cracked fretboard binding at every fret are indications that it is, or has been, bone dry. An internal inspection will reveal whether a tone bar is loose, but the top looks pretty close to normal to me. Step one would be to unstring it, get it some humidity, adjust the truss rod and see what it looks like in a week or so.

Greg Mirken

[Jeff Mando]

I might worry about fixing the instrument but breaking its incredible tone. ???

Yes, I would do the minimum to get it to play well. First, get a professional opinion. What people are calling a crack is actually a top seam separation, due to lack of humidity. Like Greg mentions, humidify it with a damp sponge in its case and see if the seam closes -- I bet it will. Then it can be glued. I would try to adjust the truss rod and lower the bridge or sand the bridge base to lower the action. And, then go from there....

[Professor PT]

I called Gary Vessel...super nice guy and helpful. Said the same about seam separation. I just assumed all tops were one piece. He advised on the truss rod, which I just tried. I turned it probably half way...it is working but I am going to let it settle and do the sponge thing. The rod turned but seems to have more resistance. Don’t want to force it and break the rod or crack the neck.

[Jeff Mando]

If you loosen the strings the truss rod may turn easier. You also might loosen the truss rod nut and put a drop of oil on the threads. Just one drop, no more. Then try again to tighten it. You've got the right idea. Turn it a little. Let it adjust. Then turn some more. Take your time. Sounds like a nice instrument.

[dan in va]

This a good lookin' mandolin. And that neck shape is wonderful, especially if it's 1 1/16" at the nut.

[rcc56]

Yes, if you encounter more than moderate resistance on the truss rod, cease and desist. We have a trick or two that can sometimes give us a little more range on a truss rod, but they require a jig and the technique is not for amateurs. If they don't work, there are other ways of straightening a neck. Whatever happens, you do not want to break the rod. If you do, you will have a very large repair bill.

And although the top doesn't look too bad, it is still advisable to have the braces inspected.
I seriously doubt that getting the instrument into sound condition is going to have an adverse effect on the tone.

[Professor PT]

As far as the neck, I haven’t measured but funny you should mention it: I was thinking yesterday when playing it that it’s super comfortable. Not too thick or thin.