Reversed mando tuning/strings for guitar player?

[Red_Label]

So I'm getting back into the mando after a couple of years away. I'm a guitarist with 35 years pro/semi-pro experience gigging everything from hard rock/metal, to country, to my own original nuevo flamenco and roots type stuff. Scale/chord patterns for guitar are like walking/breathing to me. Mandolin (and other instruments tuned in fourths) is [literally] backwards to my frame of reference. I can certainly play that tuning, but was just curious if anyone has ever experimented with reversing the strings on a mando. Not necessarily putting skinny strings on the top, and fat on the bottom... more like using a fatter E up top and skinnier G on bottom. Not sure if it would sound the same though.

I recently acquired a Veillette Avante Gryphon 12-string that's basically the child of a marriage between a mando and 12-string guitar. It's tuned D-D and there are 6 double courses of strings. It sounds "mando-like", but it has a huge neck (fatter than my actual 12-string guitars) that I don't enjoy playing such a giant neck an awful lot. Tires my left hand fairly quickly. In a few days I'll be picking up a new Eastman 515 that I put a deposit on earlier today. I played a bunch of 315s, 515s, and an 815... and this particular 515 really stood out. So I'm stoked about that, but I was just curious if anyone has tried reversing the strings on a mando. E-G tuning would be just like 4-string electric bass... which I've played a bunch as well... and my same fretboard knowledge still applies, minus the two high strings.

[Scotter]

Well, I've been playing guitar for over 40 years but tuning in 5ths just seems to be the more intelligent way to tune an instrument. Heck, Robert Fripp likes it so much that he tunes his guitar in 5ths. Anyway, there's something to be said for sticking with traditional tuning until you get the hang of it. It certainly sounds like that's what you did with guitar.

But, I'm all for having fun with alternate tunings as I love to play slide guitar in Open G and Open D, Open Dm, as well as a few other alternate guitar tunings. If you've dabbled in Banjo, ukulele, or Charango then you know that they are only a few steps away from guitar. There's nothing stopping you from tuning a mandolin in 4ths like "Chicago tuning" on a tenor guitar. I read recently that another forum member likes to tune his mandolins to an open tuning of GCEG which I'm interested in trying soon.

Gold Tone has a few offerings that are worth checking out including a 6 string mandolin using a mandola sized body that basically is an octave guitar. As a guitarist I find these really fun to play.
https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-6

Gold Tone also offers a 12 string version similar to your Avante but I'm guessing might feel more manageable:
https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldt...struments/f-12

I've got a 515 and I love it. Since so much of mandolin technique and repertoire is so closely tied to Bluegrass I decided to finally give it a go and join my local Bluegrass association. In general, I always disliked Bluegrass for all of it's codified rules but now I realize that's one of the main reasons to love it. It's a great way for bringing people together as you can play with complete strangers as long as you play by the same rules so to speak. I'm finding that there is a lot of nuance in something so simple as a chop chord. I now like to say, "Bluegrass: It's so simple that it's hard."

[kurth83]

While I like special purpose instruments, you guys are way above my head playing wise.

One of the best guitar players I ever knew had a uke tuned as the bottom four strings on a guitar, he could play all over that thing.

[Red_Label]

Well, I've been playing guitar for over 40 years but tuning in 5ths just seems to be the more intelligent way to tune an instrument. Heck, Robert Fripp likes it so much that he tunes his guitar in 5ths. Anyway, there's something to be said for sticking with traditional tuning until you get the hang of it. It certainly sounds like that's what you did with guitar.

But, I'm all for having fun with alternate tunings as I love to play slide guitar in Open G and Open D, Open Dm, as well as a few other alternate guitar tunings. If you've dabbled in Banjo, ukulele, or Charango then you know that they are only a few steps away from guitar. There's nothing stopping you from tuning a mandolin in 4ths like "Chicago tuning" on a tenor guitar. I read recently that another forum member likes to tune his mandolins to an open tuning of GCEG which I'm interested in trying soon.

Gold Tone has a few offerings that are worth checking out including a 6 string mandolin using a mandola sized body that basically is an octave guitar. As a guitarist I find these really fun to play.
https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-6

Gold Tone also offers a 12 string version similar to your Avante but I'm guessing might feel more manageable:
https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldt...struments/f-12

I've got a 515 and I love it. Since so much of mandolin technique and repertoire is so closely tied to Bluegrass I decided to finally give it a go and join my local Bluegrass association. In general, I always disliked Bluegrass for all of it's codified rules but now I realize that's one of the main reasons to love it. It's a great way for bringing people together as you can play with complete strangers as long as you play by the same rules so to speak. I'm finding that there is a lot of nuance in something so simple as a chop chord. I now like to say, "Bluegrass: It's so simple that it's hard."

Thanks for the good info. And thanks for the correction on mando/violin/etc being tuned in fifths. For whatever wacky reason, it kept coming out of my fingers as "fourths" as I typed it. DUH!

I think the main reason that I struggle with playing my scales on the mando is that on guitar, as you work from low to high strings, you generally play three-notes-per-string, but on mando it's four. My alternate picking technique as a lead player was developed from the beginning with the down-up-down strokds on a string, followed by the same when going to the string below it. So two down-strokes in a row when moving from string to string (or two ups when moving from the higher strings to lower). In a strict alternating technique, it doesn't matter if you're playing 2, 3, or 4 notes per string. Anyways... I can play 4-note scales on mando just fine, but not near the speed as I do on guitar. The pairs of strings also add to that different feeling for me, but of course that is what really gives the mando its sound.

[Red_Label]

While I like special purpose instruments, you guys are way above my head playing wise.

One of the best guitar players I ever knew had a uke tuned as the bottom four strings on a guitar, he could play all over that thing.

I have also dabbled in uke, and done the same. I have a couple of Cordoba Minis now, which are basically six string ukes tuned like guitar. They're great!

[dhergert]

So I'm getting back into the mando after a couple of years away. I'm a guitarist with 35 years pro/semi-pro experience gigging everything from hard rock/metal, to country, to my own original nuevo flamenco and roots type stuff. Scale/chord patterns for guitar are like walking/breathing to me. ...

It sounds like what you are really looking for is "Chicago Tuning", which is basically guitar tuning on other instruments. This tuning is often used by experienced guitar players so that they can quickly play various 4-string instruments. Normal Chicago Tuning on a 4-string instrument that has a scale length similar to guitar would be DGBE, or the same as the high or first 4 strings on a guitar.

On the mandolin, to avoid having to re-setup the whole instrument, you'll be best off tuning the four mandolin courses, low to high, to GCEA, or, like the high or first four strings of a guitar with a capo at the 5th fret. This tuning is convenient because it leaves the lowest mandolin course at it's normal tuning (G) and basically down-tunes everything else. You'll loose about 7 half-steps off the top end of the normal mandolin voicing with this tuning (by tuning the high E down to A).

Normal mandolin strings will work this way, but you'll probably get better tone from the instrument using higher tension strings for the E and A courses (formerly the A and E courses)...

As mentioned by @Scotter, I routinely use a similar tuning on my mandolins (GCEG), and use custom-ordered non-wound .017 and .015 loop end strings for my E and G courses (formerly the A and E courses). And I know for certain these same strings will also work for Chicago tuning because I've tried them that way -- the only difference from my GCEG tuning is tuning the high G (.015) course up a step to A, which works fine without string breakage.

These higher tension .017 and .015 strings do sound much better than standard mandolin guages in these non-standard tunings. They will not, however, successfully tune up to normal mandolin tuning without breaking, so once you have them on, you'll want to stay in Chicago Tuning until you change strings back to normal mandolin strings. Also note that the normal mandolin A and E strings frequently will break at the tuner post if de-tuned and re-tuned multiple times. So going back and forth between Chicago Tuning and normal mandolin tuning with normal mandolin strings will often result in broken strings.

The scale length on the mandolin is short, and you'll find that space between the frets is pretty small especially as you get above the 12th fret. In my GCEG tuning, I do a lot of barre-chord chord-melody work up and down the neck which works very nicely.

[stevo58]

For what it's worth, TommyTedesco tuned everything he played (which was quite a bit) like a guitar.
I'm sure this has been posted here before.
Here's a link to the gauges he used -

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in.../#post-6218569

steven

[Scotter]

I think the main reason that I struggle with playing my scales on the mando is that on guitar, as you work from low to high strings, you generally play three-notes-per-string, but on mando it's four. My alternate picking technique as a lead player was developed from the beginning with the down-up-down strokds on a string, followed by the same when going to the string below it. So two down-strokes in a row when moving from string to string (or two ups when moving from the higher strings to lower). In a strict alternating technique, it doesn't matter if you're playing 2, 3, or 4 notes per string.

To be honest, I've never really nailed alternate picking. I've flirted with rest strokes when trying to learn from Michael Horowitz's "Gypsy Picking" book but never really stuck with that either. My wife is a decent flamenco player and, as you know, rest strokes are an essential part of the style. I've found that it's also essential for learning proper fingerstyle bass playing. But with guitar, hammer ons, bends, and slides work really well letting folks like me (whose left hand fingers move faster than the pick of my right hand) get by for years with sloppy technique. Perhaps if I had given Bluegrass guitar a chance early on, I might have better alternate picking technique by now.

In my opinion, mandolin just isn't as forgiving to bad technique compared to guitar. I feel like my guitar playing improves every time I woodshed with a mandolin. Four notes per string is a real workout and my left hand pinky strength and dexterity has increased dramatically. My guitar alternate picking has been slowly but steadily improving from practice on the mandolin. Mandolin really makes me feel like a spaz and I'm learning that that's actually a good thing.

From the sound of it, I have a feeling that your alternate picking woes will fade quickly as you woodshed traditional 4 notes per string with 5ths tunings.

[Randi Gormley]

Doesn't it depend on what you're looking for? If you're looking to play mandolin, it's better to play the instrument as it's designed to be played by most people. If the idea is to be able to quickly move from guitar to mando or to pick up the mandolin without having to relearn what you already know, then dhergert has one way to work it. You do what works for what you're looking for.

I do find it interesting that people say they love the sound of the mandolin and then want to change it to be something else. I came to mandolin from flute and baroque recorder, and while I play it like a single-line-melody instrument (that being my background) I still learned actual technique for the instrument ... but i had no specific reason to make a shortcut, like necessity or a pressing gig.

[dhergert]

Of course I can understand wanting to play mandolin more quickly based on an existing skill set honed through decades, obviously...

But, in reality, like every other musical instrument, the mandolin evolved to be what it currently is today. It wasn't abruptly designed in or near it's current form 100 years ago and just suddenly appeared the way we see it now, nor was its standard tuning suddenly adopted out of the blue. Like most other stringed instruments, the current standard tuning for mandolin was pretty much decided out of convenience for the majority of people who have wanted to play it over a period of many hundreds of years. That the current standard mandolin tuning is like violin tuning isn't just coincidence, it was part of the mandolin's evolution. Violin players wanted to be able to quickly adapt to playing the mandolin, too.

That said, an instrument's tuning does have something to do with how it sounds. As I've mentioned Chicago tuning and my GCEG tuning on mandolin does reduce the high range of the instrument by between 7 and 9 half-steps. And an instrument's tuning can help define how it is played. These are things that careful musicians have to decide about related to any tunings that they choose to use, whether the tuning is standard or non-standard.

In my experience, if a mandolin player wants to use a non-standard tuning, but does select to flatpick, many if not most people listening to that instrument being played won't know there is anything different going on with tuning.

[Red_Label]

It sounds like what you are really looking for is "Chicago Tuning", which is basically guitar tuning on other instruments. This tuning is often used by experienced guitar players so that they can quickly play various 4-string instruments. Normal Chicago Tuning on a 4-string instrument that has a scale length similar to guitar would be DGBE, or the same as the high or first 4 strings on a guitar.

On the mandolin, to avoid having to re-setup the whole instrument, you'll be best off tuning the four mandolin courses, low to high, to GCEA, or, like the high or first four strings of a guitar with a capo at the 5th fret. This tuning is convenient because it leaves the lowest mandolin course at it's normal tuning (G) and basically down-tunes everything else. You'll loose about 7 half-steps off the top end of the normal mandolin voicing with this tuning (by tuning the high E down to A).

Normal mandolin strings will work this way, but you'll probably get better tone from the instrument using higher tension strings for the E and A courses (formerly the A and E courses)...

As mentioned by @Scotter, I routinely use a similar tuning on my mandolins (GCEG), and use custom-ordered non-wound .017 and .015 loop end strings for my E and G courses (formerly the A and E courses). And I know for certain these same strings will also work for Chicago tuning because I've tried them that way -- the only difference from my GCEG tuning is tuning the high G (.015) course up a step to A, which works fine without string breakage.

These higher tension .017 and .015 strings do sound much better than standard mandolin guages in these non-standard tunings. They will not, however, successfully tune up to normal mandolin tuning without breaking, so once you have them on, you'll want to stay in Chicago Tuning until you change strings back to normal mandolin strings. Also note that the normal mandolin A and E strings frequently will break at the tuner post if de-tuned and re-tuned multiple times. So going back and forth between Chicago Tuning and normal mandolin tuning with normal mandolin strings will often result in broken strings.

The scale length on the mandolin is short, and you'll find that space between the frets is pretty small especially as you get above the 12th fret. In my GCEG tuning, I do a lot of barre-chord chord-melody work up and down the neck which works very nicely.

That's exactly the type of info I'm looking for! Thanks!!!

[Red_Label]

Doesn't it depend on what you're looking for? If you're looking to play mandolin, it's better to play the instrument as it's designed to be played by most people. If the idea is to be able to quickly move from guitar to mando or to pick up the mandolin without having to relearn what you already know, then dhergert has one way to work it. You do what works for what you're looking for.

I do find it interesting that people say they love the sound of the mandolin and then want to change it to be something else. I came to mandolin from flute and baroque recorder, and while I play it like a single-line-melody instrument (that being my background) I still learned actual technique for the instrument ... but i had no specific reason to make a shortcut, like necessity or a pressing gig.

You can't compare coming over to mando from a wind instrument, to coming over from 6 string guitars. Your technique wouldn't have a chance at translating... whereas mine did partially. At any rate... I do know how to play mandolin the way it was designed. But I could play it with even more ease if I were to be able to adopt more techniques/knowledge from guitar. I play 6-string guitars (steel and nylon), 12-string guitars, mando, uke, and bass in my current trio. I don't have the luxury of being a specialist.

[Red_Label]

For what it's worth, TommyTedesco tuned everything he played (which was quite a bit) like a guitar.
I'm sure this has been posted here before.
Here's a link to the gauges he used -

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in.../#post-6218569

steven

Wow... I had no idea! That's great. I'll have to give it a try.

Though I have been learning some mando tunes for my acoustic cover trio in traditional tuning (though half a step flat). I been playing/singing Steve Earl's "Copperhead Road" and John Meyer's "Say".

[Cobalt]

The comparison of mandolin with flute is interesting. I often think when I play mandolin, what I'm really doing is emulating a vocalist, the type of inflection and emphasis that a vocalist gives when singing, is how I aim to play mandolin. I'm less sure of flute, but there are certainly wind instruments where the relationship of the sound to that of a vocalist is readily apparent.

Of course there are differences, but I do think the mandolin can give an expressiveness which has its own character, for example it might play the same line as a violin, but the aim is not to make each sound the same, but rather to draw out from each instrument those things in which it excels.

[Randi Gormley]

Lordy, play any way you want. We'll not stop you! Whatever parallels I was attempting to draw between playing flute/recorder and mandolin apparently weren't as simple as i was thinking -- less finger technique than other stuff like sight reading, expression, group playing, musical understanding -- so we'll let that pass. If you can jumpstart your mandolin playing by adjusting stuff to what you're used to, that's the way to go. I know someone who invented his own fingering for the instrument because it made more sense to him. As long as it works, let 'er rip.

[Br1ck]

I was happier when I quit trying to think of a mandolin in guitar terms. It's an entirely fresh concept made much easier because of your flat picking experience.

[Kevin Winn]

I was happier when I quit trying to think of a mandolin in guitar terms. It's an entirely fresh concept made much easier because of your flat picking experience.

This ^^^^

[Red_Label]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. I'm definitely going to continue working with standard mandolin tuning on my new Eastman (though I tune 1/2 step flat, because my trio tunes that way for easier vocals and easier on the left hand as well). But I may play around with alternate tunings on my other mando (an old Alvarez A800 F-style that sounds/plays pretty good).

When I first picked-up the mando (at least 15 years ago), I actually learned a bunch of Bach violin partitas right out of the gate, because I knew the tuning for violin and mando were the same... and I had a bunch of sheet music for violin from my college days, when I was learning violin and saxophone scores on guitar for "fun". So I'm definitely no stranger to traditional mandolin tuning. But still... I've already done quite a bit of that in the past and was looking to experiment with something different that might adapt more easily to my guitar skill/knowledge set that has been honed very extensively for the past 35 years. If I had endless hours to devote to the mando, or could make it my primary instrument... that would be good. But neither is the case for me, so I have to get max bang for the buck on my usage of time. At any rate... I think I'll continue to focus on using the mandolin "as-designed" and when I want the mando sound, but using my guitar chops, I will just play the Veillette Gryphon.


Here are a couple of mando tunes that I wrote and recorded a few years ago... the last time I was playing a bit (before I sold both of my American Breedlove KO mandos). My mando lead chops don't flow nearly as well as I would like (despite my flatpicking experience). So that's something I'll continue to work on.


https://soundcloud.com/jwflamenco/jo...alker-serenity


https://soundcloud.com/jwflamenco/jo...t-with-the-old


If someone is bored and wants to check out a smattering of various things I've dabbled with, you'll see that I'm FAR more comfortable playing guitar than mando. There are various genres represented here... http://soundcloud.com/jwflamenco

[BillytheB]

Someone else has probably pointed out that D G B E is probably a more functional tuning if you're looking to emulate a guitar. This is the Tommy Tedesco recipe for session musician success. He tuned everything with strings like a guitar and always said yes to a "Tommy, can you play a xxxxxx?" and that eventually turned into "Call Tommy, he can play everything!". With that said, you will have guitar licks with a mandolin sound which is kinda not the same.

[Red_Label]

Someone else has probably pointed out that D G B E is probably a more functional tuning if you're looking to emulate a guitar. This is the Tommy Tedesco recipe for session musician success. He tuned everything with strings like a guitar and always said yes to a "Tommy, can you play a xxxxxx?" and that eventually turned into "Call Tommy, he can play everything!". With that said, you will have guitar licks with a mandolin sound which is kinda not the same.

I'm definitely gonna have to check that tuning out!

[dhergert]

Perhaps worth mentioning, DGBE is the actual Chicago Tuning on a guitar-scale necked instrument. The GCEA "Chicago Tuning" that I suggested provides the same intervals and chord patterns, only 5-frets up the guitar neck, and is probably more compatible with a shorter-than-guitar scale mandolin neck, nut and bridge setup.

In a similar mandolin octave range, the D, G and B strings would probably have to be complete lighter-gauge replacements for the G, D and A strings of a more standard mandolin string set, keeping the E string. You might be very lucky and be able tune a standard mandolin A string up to B, but that's getting pretty high-tension. And, you'd lose 7 half-steps from standard mandolin tuning's low range with this tuning. Choices.

[Red_Label]

Perhaps worth mentioning, DGBE is the actual Chicago Tuning on a guitar-scale necked instrument. The GCEA "Chicago Tuning" that I suggested provides the same intervals and chord patterns, only 5-frets up the guitar neck, and is probably more compatible with a shorter-than-guitar scale mandolin neck, nut and bridge setup.

In a similar mandolin octave range, the D, G and B strings would probably have to be complete lighter-gauge replacements for the G, D and A strings of a more standard mandolin string set, keeping the E string. You might be very lucky and be able tune a standard mandolin A string up to B, but that's getting pretty high-tension. And, you'd lose 7 half-steps from standard mandolin tuning's low range with this tuning. Choices.

Good info! Yeah... I'm for sure going to research proper strings and tension for any tuning I play around with. I've had a few injuries to my hands and one to a guitar's top over the years from snapping strings. I generally would rather have too low a tension on a string, rather than too high.

[Jess L.]

... He tuned everything with strings like a guitar...

I can certainly understand the desire to apply the knowledge one already has, to a new/different instrument. Especially if you're playing the same tunes and genres, but on a new instrument.

---

1. Short version of my comment: I think it depends on what one wants to play, as to which tuning makes the most sense and (preferably) is the most comfortable to use.

---

2. Long version (probably TL;DR lol) of my comment:

In my case, I have the opposite situation of the OP - I have a longstanding habit of tuning everything (including guitars) in 5ths, been doing that since I was a kid (before I'd ever heard of the apparently-newfangled term "new standard tuning") when I first got ahold of a cheap horrible old plywood 12-string guitar, didn't take me long to retune that thing to fifths like a fiddle but lower pitched (I had 4 of its courses tuned GDAE an octave lower than a fiddle or mandolin; the other 2 courses were unused) because it just sounded better that way for the stuff I was playing, and the notes were all in the 'right' places (I already played fiddle and mandolin which are tuned the same). I didn't mind the stretch (extra distance between frets), that was never a problem (had already been experimenting with a $5 junkstore plywood cello as well as tenor banjo, yup you guess it, more fiddle tunes, so the guitar longer scale length wasn't an issue). No, the stuff I played on that 12-string guitar didn't sound like 12-string blues guitar or whatever it is that 12-strings are supposed to sound like, but I wasn't playing blues (hadn't even heard of blues and wouldn't have known how to play that genre anyway), so for the tunes I *was* playing, my 'corrupted' non-guitar-tuning was ideal.

Fiddle tuning (5ths tuning) on guitars etc, is perfect for flatpicking fiddle tunes (imagine that!) without having awkward string crossings etc. The tunes "just fit" because that's the tuning they were designed for (mostly, except for cross-tuned AEAE and such).

So I guess basically it amounts to "What style of music are you going to be playing?" For me it was fiddle tunes, nearly all melody with very little chord work (at that time), so it made sense to use fiddle tuning on a guitar etc (and various other instruments as well) that I wanted to flatpick fiddle tunes on.

Still doing that, although I finally made my escape from the all-acoustic stuff that had me fettered for decades (woohoo! lovin' it), and now I play an electric guitar tuned in 5ths (CGDAEB) (easier on my old arthritic fingers, I can use extra-extra-light gauge sloppy-loose strings on the electric without having issues, and I like the variety of sounds I can get all in just one instrument without having to devolve into full packrat mode again with dozens of acoustic instruments like I used to have, ugh that was a chore having all those darn instruments to deal with). Now, same fiddle tune stuff mostly, although I've finally also gotten into more really simple basic backing stuff still using GDAE or variants thereof (simple backing example, GDAEB). The 5ths-tuned electric basically serves as a faux tenor guitar but with two extra strings - an extra treble "B" string for easier access to some higher notes without having to go up the neck, and an extra bass "C" string just because I like the sound of that low note.

Anyway, my point for the OP, is don't worry about what other people think about whichever tuning you choose to use - most people probably won't care one way or the other, as long as they like the resulting sound (unless you hand them the instrument to play and they're expecting 'normal' tuning lol). An instrument is just a tool to create a sound you want. IMO, if you can make enjoyable sounds, then it doesn't matter if it's a mandolin tuned like a guitar, or a guitar tuned like a mandolin... it's all good.

[Red_Label]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply JL277z. Good stuff. I may have to try tuning in 5ths on a guitar... just to see what comes out. That may actually help ease my transition... if my hands feel the comfort of a guitar. Great concept!