Got my shellac flakes! Question about color build up.

[John Bertotti]

A question before I dig in and something I am sure I will find out once I start but trips have once again slowed me down. I am curious does the color of the flakes happen with the first coat or is it a more of a build up as you rub it in? I am rubbing these in, kind of like spit shining a boot.

[rockies]

I'm sure the experts on the Café will respond... however on mine I stained and put a base coat of shellac on before french polishing. Others stain and apply a coat of varnish before the French polish. I've found the shellac does not apply much color to the process.
Dave

[John Bertotti]

Cool thanks! I wondered how much color they imparted, so it is more like a floor varnish a bit of tone some lighter some darker. I bought garnet and blonde so I will experiment on some scrap and see just how much tone these have. Thanks again!

[Marty Jacobson]

If you want to be really humbled, and very frustrated, but learn quickly how French polishing works, try French polishing with a 1/2 pound cut of Garnet flakes. Please do this on scrap. This will give you a good sense of how the finish is applied and how evenly you're applying it.

Garnet is very dark, but it's not the kind of thing you'd do a sunburst with, for example.

Personally I would brush or spray the base color coats, and would never attempt to French polish anything but a tool handle or something without having a good base coat of shellac, well cured for at least a week or two and then level sanded. French polish is a finish application technique, but the build is very slow, and as you are first learning it, you will be polishing through the previous layers you have applied all the time, which is super frustrating and will lead to a blotchy looking piece of spruce since the oil will penetrate inconsistently. My preference would be an oil varnish, then several coats of shellac, level off, then start French polishing (with blonde - never FP with a strong color).

Disclaimer- I don't claim to be an expert, but I did spend 600 hours french polishing my instruments one year (2013, the year of misguided elbow grease)...

[John Bertotti]

Do any of you use a hide glue as a sizing on your surfaces first?

[HoGo]

Do any of you use a hide glue as a sizing on your surfaces first?

hide glue or gelatin (basicly the same stuff) was once favorite selaer for german violin makers. Current practices are not very fond of that. It can heve some bad habits if water gets to it like on hide glue repairs of cracks. The water from the glue attacks the sealer and often the varnish layers can lift near the crack.
Shellac is simple and pretty problem free sealer for almost any finish out there.
I would not FP with darker shellacs (anything darker than amber, and perhaps even some of the darker amber grades). There's no chance it won't be blotchy (very noticeable on lighter woods) unless you are robot and can perfectly control your progress (especially at inaccessible areas). They can be used for darker spirit varnishes and applied by brush in many diluted layers or by spraygun.

[Dale Ludewig]

Adrian- your phrase of "bad habits" is priceless.

[Tavy]

Just to say if you don't have spray gear, you can pad on shellac or even apply with a foam brush (2lb cut - after a while you can judge the mix by viscosity - I mix it up a bit thick and then dilute until it's spreadable and no longer "treacle"). Give it a good while to cure, and then sand level and FP the top coats.

I would also stay away from anything that's not extra-blonde and dewaxed: the garnet flakes impart a great colour for restoration work, or as a ground on some darker woods, but as others have said, don't build up thickness with them as it'll never be an even colour.

[John Bertotti]

Well thanks everyone for filling me in! Do you also use a pumice grind as a pore filler during your process? I have wet sanded finiosh in before but it didn't involve figured wood so it worked out well. I am not sure how it would interact with a nice figure. Plenty of experimenting to do and yes evfen some of what you all warned me of I will need to try to get first hand experienc ebut not on good wood!

[Marty Jacobson]

Maple and spruce don't need pore filling. You are better off with a modern pore filler, should you need one.

[John Bertotti]

I'm going to get my hands on some Black Walnut and cherry, the cherry should be ok but the Black Walnut has larger pores. So either wet sand with a thinned finish or a pore filler. I have wondered what it might look like if I used a powdered metal or mineral like is used in some two part epoxy mixes. I'm in no rush though I am a ways out from trying that yet.

[Rob Roy]

+1 on super blond shellac, nothing darker if you're planning on any sunbursting or shading. I use it to seal the bare spruce before starting the hand-rubbed portion of a sunbrust. It keeps the top from looking splotchy (for me at least). Then I seal in the color with a light coat of shellac before I switch to the gun for the darkest shade around the rims. Sealing the grain on mahogany or walnut is going to be a multi-step process, you have to be prepared for shrinkage of the filler after it initially dries. The best mirror finish I've seen on a mahogany instrument was actually filled with one of the modern epoxies, then sanded back to bare wood.

[John Bertotti]

+1 on super blond shellac, nothing darker if you're planning on any sunbursting or shading. I use it to seal the bare spruce before starting the hand-rubbed portion of a sunbrust. It keeps the top from looking splotchy (for me at least). Then I seal in the color with a light coat of shellac before I switch to the gun for the darkest shade around the rims. Sealing the grain on mahogany or walnut is going to be a multi-step process, you have to be prepared for shrinkage of the filler after it initially dries. The best mirror finish I've seen on a mahogany instrument was actually filled with one of the modern epoxies, then sanded back to bare wood.

My high school cabinet making project, yes it was a while ago, was with cherry. I wasn't great with the spray gun and the other guy wasn't great cutting lids off a box on the table saw so I cut his and he sprayed mine. Screwed it all up got a slight run and tried to hide it buy spraying so much on it just dripped off. This is the only school work I ever took home as homework. I spent 10 hours hand sanding all the build up off. I got progressively finer until I was into no grit papers 5k 10k etc. This was like a mirror when I was done. The finish was just some good old deft. I surely don't ever want to hand sand 10 hours straight ever again.