Shellac flakes, which alcohol?

[John Bertotti]

I see a reference to denatured but I am curious would good old everclear work well or does it have to be denatured alcohol? I have everclear and am under the impression denatured has some issues with health? Thanks!

Sorry, I have not french polished before but I have done a lot of spit shine shoes, like a mirror when I am done so I hope I can pick this up. Hoping everclear works since I have it but if not I can run to town and buy denatured alcohol. My flakes have not arrived yet so I'm in no rush.

[Marty Jacobson]

I use denatured alcohol, it's a lot cheaper. I don't inhale or drink it, it's fine.

[Charles E.]

I have read that some guitar makers who french polish use everclear with good results. More importantly I think is the freshness of the alcohol. If you have a half bottle of everclear that has been sitting around a long time, chances are it will have absorbed water into it, making it less effective. The same is true for denatured alcohol.

[rcc56]

Everclear or Golden Grain is fine.
If you're worried about your health, don't drink it, and don't smoke around it.

I've had drying problems with denatured alcohol, at least the stuff you get from Ace Hardware. I've also had problems using it as a base for alcohol soluble aniline dyes. It can turn them green.

In all seriousness, Everclear should be less hazardous than denatured-- denatured may contain hazardous chemical additives such as MEK [methyl ethyl ketone], which is pretty bad stuff.

[Mark Gunter]

Denatured alcohol is cheaper because it's poisoned (denatured) to prevent human consumption. This also avoids "sin tax" making it much cheaper. I use denatured alcohol mostly, and reserve the good stuff for imbibing.

But yes, denatured alcohol can be a health hazard, as are most industrial chemicals finishers use. Don't drink it, wear nitrile gloves for most finishing tasks, wear a respirator and ventilate the area, etc. etc.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks everyone! I will run with a new bottle of everclear and see what happens. I’ve had way to much contact with MEK and Trich3 etc to want anything to do with those chemicals anymore.

[rockies]

I've used Everclear for shellac many times and it works great. Just remember to filter it through something after it's dissolved. I use parts of a well worn old white T-shirt. I believe Michael Heiden told me once he uses Everc;ear for his shellac.
Dave

[sblock]

A word to the wise:

Be aware that so-called "overproof" alcohols intended for human consumption differ from state to state! In some states, Everclear is fully 190 proof (95% ethanol). However, in California, Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, Hawaii, Iowa, Michigan, New York, Nevada, Ohio, Washington, North Carolina, New Hampshire and Minnesota, there are laws restricting overproof alcohols.

In California, for example, the Everclear sold is just 151 proof (75.5% ethanol), and it contains too much water (nearly 25%) for the job of finishing with shellac (or anything else). You're better off buying denatured alcohol, in my opinion, which will be 95% ethanol.

Check your state laws.

[John Bertotti]

We get full strength here! My state isn’t very regulated. A lot of good ole farmers and cowboys out here.

[sunburst]

... I think is the freshness of the alcohol. If you have a half bottle of everclear that has been sitting around a long time, chances are it will have absorbed water into it, making it less effective. The same is true for denatured alcohol.

First of all, Golden Grain, at least around here, is cheaper than Everclear.

"Pure grain" alcohol is at equilibrium. It does not gain moisture from the environment because, being at equilibrium, it is already where it "wants" to be. If you are fortunate enough to live where you can get absolute alcohol, it will gain moisture from the environment until it is "pure grain". (This is one of the things I remember from chemistry class way back in the last century.) I don't think there is any degradation of ethanol from proper storage.

Back to the OP; I use Golden Grain for dissolving shellac flakes with no undue problems.

[rcc56]

In California, for example, the Everclear sold is just 151 proof (75.5% ethanol), and it contains too much water (nearly 25%) for the job of finishing with shellac (or anything else).

Guess y'all are just gonna have to get you a copper kettle . . .

[HoGo]

There was thread about alcohol month or two ago...
I'm using anhydrous alcohol sold as fuel for ventless fireplaces (bioethanol). Contains more than 99.9% ethanol (I requested MSDS and detailed description from producer to verify) and just trace amount of denaturing agent. I haven't a dissolved bottle of shellac go bad (not drying properly, getting sticky etc.) since I started using this stuff. Olover Apitius found source for similar stuff in Canada (and suggested the company is also active in US) so you can get that.
I've used pharmacy grade ethanol 96% before but the anhydrous is just plainly better and costs just funder 2 EUR per liter.... Strongly recommend.

[O. Apitius]

Yes, Adruan is right. I get anhydrous alcohol from a company called GreenField Specialty Alcohols. They have extremely pure ethyl alcohol (not 100% of course) and I am told that they have operations in the U.S. Perhaps under a different name.

Here in over regulated Ontario, Canada there is a bit of red tape to cut through but it is doable.

[John Bertotti]

Well my flkes shoul dbe here Saturday and I can start some experimenting. I have never used flakes only caneed or rubbed oils like teak and tung, so I want to practice before I attack a nice piece of curly maple with it. It will be niece to use the wood I got and some of which got jointed back in '02-'03. Rerally po'd I got pulled away from these projects for so long but on a bright side the wood was from Spruce and was already pretty seasoned and now it has been in my home for a long time so it should be good to go.

[Gail Hester]

I use Everclear 95%. I have a license from the State to procure industrial alcohol which avoids the sin tax. I like to work in an environment that's as non-toxic as possible.

[John Bertotti]

I just checked my bottle one store had 150 proof and I was thinking dang! But when I got home it was 190proof 95%, all is good again.

[Bernie Daniel]

Ethanol aka ethyl alcohol aka grain alcohol has to be one of the most misunderstood common chemicals on the planet?

Ethanol is completely miscible with water -- that is a forms a homogeneous solutions with water at any concentration.

Ethanol also forms an azeotrope with water of 5% water and 95% ethanol -- that is a fixed concentration ratio and those proportions cannot be altered or changed by simple distillation.

That where "Everclear" comes from i.e., a distillation of water and ethanol -- the distillation product is 95% ethanol-5% water (i.e., 190 Proof). But today some sell further diluted alcohols also called "everclear" so some of the products sold under that name are 60%, 75% or 95% alcohol (i.e., 120, 150 or 190 U.S. Proof). This is the case in the USA and the concentration of ethanol (ethyl alcohol) in everclear might be different in other countries. I don't know.

Denatured ethanol is ethanol solution that is greater then 95% pure. There are many methods of removing the last 5% of water from the azeotrope of ethanol and water. Some times a chemical is added during the distillation process to "break up" the azeotrope - chemicals like methyl alcohol, toluene, methy-isobutyl ketone, hexane, benzene and other were used in the past. Thus, denatured alcohol is very pure probably greater then 99.99% ethanol but certainly not intended for drinking because approximately 0.01" is the denaturing agent. I'm not sure what the most common denaturant is these days.

But you can make (and I assume purchase?) "pure alcohol" or "anhydrous alcohol" this is a product formed by removing the last 5% of water using some process other than distillation -- like using a "molecular sieve" for example. Molecular sieves are beads of a ceramic like material that have holes so small that only molecules of water can enter and the larger molecules of ethanol are excluded so the water collects in the beads and is removed that way. Should be nothing any more toxic then ethanol itself in that kind of an anhydrous preparation -- in fact it should not even be called "denatured" because it isn't. I'm thinking sometimes there is confusion between pure and denatured ethanol though? But if you expose anhydrous ethanol to the atmosphere it will reach the same proportion as everclear in a short time -- i.e., 95% ethanol until it all evaporates.

Toxicity -- another can of worms. As chemicals go the absolute toxicity of ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is not what I would call "highly toxic" If you go to the literature or material safety data sheets you will see that the "LD50" (the dose that will kill 50% of the individuals drinking it) for ethanol is something like 4 -7 gm/kg -- depending on age and sex -- it is more toxic to human females. So if are a 172 lbs (78 kg) male like me for example you should have to drink about 450 gm (= 585 ml) of alcohol to have a 50% chance of killing yourself! I am not likely to do that either intentionally or by accident.

Likewise it is even less toxic via the subcutaneous route - meaning with any care in the should you should have a very low probability of injuring yourself handling ethyl alcohol in your shop. I would not wash my hands it it for example -- but you probably could even do that with no ill effects -- I would not make a habit of that course!! Same with inhalation -- moderate care and you should be very safe -- how long would it take you to inhale a large cup of ethanol from the air in your shop for example?

So putting ethanol or isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol) on a paper towel and wiping some epoxy glue or finish of your fingers is something I don't worry about doing from time to time if needed.

Chemistry it is worth knowing.

[Marty Jacobson]

That's interesting, Bernie. I assume toxicity is has additional complexities - I just looked up the LD50 for MEK, and it was at 5g/kg from one manufacturer's source. So about the same acute toxicity as ethyl alcohol, going by your post. But I'd be willing to wager that long-term exposure to small amounts (a few PPM on a daily basis) of MEK would do far worse things than a little alcohol on the skin or in the air. I also see that the oral LD50 is around 30mg/kg, so getting quite a bit more dangerous depending on the route of exposure.
Really makes me think about the times I've casually used a spray paint can outside "because it's just a quick job", thinking nothing of it.

[Bernie Daniel]

That's interesting, Bernie. I assume toxicity is has additional complexities - I just looked up the LD50 for MEK, and it was at 5g/kg from one manufacturer's source. So about the same acute toxicity as ethyl alcohol, going by your post. But I'd be willing to wager that long-term exposure to small amounts (a few PPM on a daily basis) of MEK would do far worse things than a little alcohol on the skin or in the air. I also see that the oral LD50 is around 30mg/kg, so getting quite a bit more dangerous depending on the route of exposure.
Really makes me think about the times I've casually used a spray paint can outside "because it's just a quick job", thinking nothing of it.

Yes Marty, MEK (Methyl-Ethyl Ketone) is a nasty compound for living things. Just to be clear that is not the same as MIBK (methyl Isobutyl Ketone that was (maybe still? but doubtful) used to break up the water-ethanol azeotrope in the preparation of denatured alcohol.

Installation toxicity is a very complex and there are many forms of toxicological parameters to consider in assigning risk - such things as concentration, time of exposure, frequency of exposure, peak concentration and dwell time and so forth. Reading inhalation toxicological values can be very confusing because of the complexity of the exposure calculation. But you are wise to be cautious.

Many chemists of my generation (including myself) poisoned ourselves in the 60s with a prevailing casual attitude toward the handling of standard laboratory solvents like benzene. For example, it was not uncommon for a chem lab to literally reek of benzene vapors. Getting the boiling point of benzene from an open beaker heated over a steam bath was a standard organic chem lab experiment number one in the 1960s. Imagine 40 students each with their own beaker of boiling benzene right out on the lab bench in the same room! And the smell was overwhelming -- but that was chemistry and most thought little about it. We learned in the 80s that benzene is a leukemogen -- but it was too late for many. I get blood tests every 6 months now and a disproportionate number of the chemists of my generation succumbed to leukemia.

By the way benzene boils at around 80 C if I recall correctly -- in case you were wondering..........

[John Bertotti]

Yes Marty, MEK (Methyl-Ethyl Ketone) is a nasty compound for living things. Just to be clear that is not the same as MIBK (methyl Isobutyl Ketone that was (maybe still? but doubtful) used to break up the water-ethanol azeotrope in the preparation of denatured alcohol.

Installation toxicity is a very complex and there are many forms of toxicological parameters to consider in assigning risk - such things as concentration, time of exposure, frequency of exposure, peak concentration and dwell time and so forth. Reading inhalation toxicological values can be very confusing because of the complexity of the exposure calculation. But you are wise to be cautious.

Many chemists of my generation (including myself) poisoned ourselves in the 60s with a prevailing casual attitude toward the handling of standard laboratory solvents like benzene. For example, it was not uncommon for a chem lab to literally reek of benzene vapors. Getting the boiling point of benzene from an open beaker heated over a steam bath was a standard organic chem lab experiment number one in the 1960s. Imagine 40 students each with their own beaker of boiling benzene right out on the lab bench in the same room! And the smell was overwhelming -- but that was chemistry and most thought little about it. We learned in the 80s that benzene is a leukemogen -- but it was too late for many. I get blood tests every 6 months now and a disproportionate number of the chemists of my generation succumbed to leukemia.

By the way benzene boils at around 80 C if I recall correctly -- in case you were wondering..........

I used to work for the company that makes micro mesh in Wilton Iowa, Micro Surface Finishing. MEK was a very common solvent there. I was working with it daily along with some other industrial chemicals. Glad I didn't work there too long as those solvents were very dangerous and I was tired of smelling them. Good people Great product

[Marty Jacobson]

Good people Great product

Amen, I rely on Micro-Mesh pretty heavily.

[Bernie Daniel]

Yes Marty, MEK (Methyl-Ethyl Ketone) is a nasty compound for living things. Just to be clear that is not the same as MIBK (methyl Isobutyl Ketone that was (maybe still? but doubtful) used to break up the water-ethanol azeotrope in the preparation of denatured alcohol.

Installation toxicity is a very complex and there are many forms of toxicological parameters to consider in assigning risk - such things as concentration, time of exposure, frequency of exposure, peak concentration and dwell time and so forth. Reading inhalation toxicological values can be very confusing because of the complexity of the exposure calculation. But you are wise to be cautious.

Many chemists of my generation (including myself) poisoned ourselves in the 60s with a prevailing casual attitude toward the handling of standard laboratory solvents like benzene. For example, it was not uncommon for a chem lab to literally reek of benzene vapors. Getting the boiling point of benzene from an open beaker heated over a steam bath was a standard organic chem lab experiment number one in the 1960s. Imagine 40 students each with their own beaker of boiling benzene right out on the lab bench in the same room! And the smell was overwhelming -- but that was chemistry and most thought little about it. We learned in the 80s that benzene is a leukemogen -- but it was too late for many. I get blood tests every 6 months now and a disproportionate number of the chemists of my generation succumbed to leukemia.

By the way benzene boils at around 80 C if I recall correctly -- in case you were wondering..........

I'm "replying" to my own post because I just realize that I wrote "installation toxicology" instead of inhalation toxicology -- not sure how that happened but I probably got some help from spell check? Thanks a lot.

[Larry Simonson]

Oh I remember coming home from chem labs in the early Sixties and my mother wondered what the heck I was doing to smell so bad. I also worry about the long term affects. And if my memory is correct (that's another question) it was benzene that was added to 95% ethanol to remove the last 5% water and us grad students generally preferred 95% for mixing with our cokes.

[HoGo]

Oh I remember coming home from chem labs in the early Sixties and my mother wondered what the heck I was doing to smell so bad. I also worry about the long term affects. And if my memory is correct (that's another question) it was benzene that was added to 95% ethanol to remove the last 5% water and us grad students generally preferred 95% for mixing with our cokes.

I sent inquiry to the producer of my alcohol about contentsand they wrote me back (on sunday!) the alcohol is anhydrous and norm states at least 99.7% for that. Actually they start with 99.9 to 99.95% anhydrous ethanol and add denaturants according to norms (he sent me tables) that say to use 2 milliliters of MEK and 10 milligrams of denatonium benzoate per 1 liter of alcohol, so the result is still way above 99% alcohol and NO added water. I also got 17 pages of MSDS materials from them.

I guess there must be quite a few similar producers in US... in EU the bio-fuels are big thing and supported by governments.

[Larry Simonson]

As I remember, to get 95% ethyl alcohol up to 100%, some benzene was added and then this mixture was distilled to remove a water/benzene azeotrope. Quite possibly there was a trace of benzene in the final product. That was done so that the anhydrous ethanol could be used in a chemical process that would be ruined by the presence of any water. This is not denaturing the alcohol. Denaturing is making ethyl alcohol unsuitable for drinking by adding some nasty stuff to it. Undrinkable alcohol incurred no tax.

Chemistry, alcohol, and Mandolins = a short story of me