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Thread: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

  1. #1

    Default L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    I just came into possession of a 1910-1914 L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando.
    I'm looking to fit it with a strap but having a hard time figuring out how to attach it at the bottom (for those who know about these vintage instruments). Any suggestions... or am I being sacrilegious even thinking about this idea?

  2. #2
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Thread a leather thong through the tailpiece, and tie it through the hole in your strap that would have accommodated the end pin/strap button -- if the Leland had one, which it doesn't. I've done this on several non-strap-button older instruments.

    Lots of on-line chatting about whether Leland Brilliantone instruments were made by the Larson Bros. Whadda you think?
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    See if this gives you any ideas about how to attach a strap.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  4. #4

    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Thanks for all the excellent strap suggestions. I am going through them now to try and figure out the best method. And Allen Hopkins, I thought I read somewhere in my research that the Larson Bros. DID have something to do with this Brilliantone but I can't remember where I saw it.
    However, this instrument has a unique feature. At the top of the head stock there is a inlay of a logo that says "G A M".
    Inside at the top of the label it has the name G. A. Mercer, Jr. (See attachments).
    I did a bit of research and George Anderson Mercer was an attorney in Savannah, GA. He was also the father of the award winning composer Johnny Mercer!
    That's all I've been able to find. If anyone has additional information I would love to hear it.
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  5. #5
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    You can thread a piece of leather through the back of that Waverly tailpiece the same way I did on the Kalamazoo in the link I posted without changing any part of the mandolin.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  6. #6

    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Yeah - I'm thinking that's the way to go. Thanks.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    It may be easier to remove the strings and loosen the bottom screw, thread it through, then tighten it again. Good luck.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Quote Originally Posted by TLW View Post
    ...I thought I read somewhere in my research that the Larson Bros. DID have something to do with this Brilliantone but I can't remember where I saw it...If anyone has additional information I would love to hear it.
    Well, Player's Vintage Instruments makes the claim here, at least for the one they're selling. Vintage Instruments states this Leland guitar is Larson-built. Bob Hartman, the Larson relative and authority on what instruments they made, lists this guitar in the Larson Brothers Guitar Registry web page.

    I have been severely chastised in the past, for speculating that instruments with nameplates associated with the Larsons, may be products of their shop. I'm no expert, though in the past year or so I've acquired two Larson-made Stahl instruments, a mandola and a mando-bass. ID-ing Larson instruments is clearly not a job for the inexperienced, nor for the faint of heart -- at least, not on the Cafe.

    Anyway, looks like your mandolin was specially made for Mr. Mercer, personalized as such instruments often were, for musicians of note or well-known figures -- or, maybe, just those who could pay for the personalization. I had an instrument made by a local luthier, and had my initials put on it. Mr. Mercer had someone -- maybe the Larsons, maybe not -- "monogram" this one for him.
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  9. #9
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    TLW has posted a very interesting Leland as it clearly breaks from the standard mold of most of these that I have seen. (Full disclosure, I own five "Lelands", four with the Brilliantone label and one with a Wurlitzer label.) All feature the same body shape, pickguard shape, headstock shape and bridge position south of the body cant-as on the one Allen linked to.

    They all also feature a serial number on the short top brace north of the sound hole, which is coincidentally the location of the serial numbers (in the same type font, ink color and number series) as those on the Ditson Empire bowlback series, which also feature the very Vega-features of--the same pickguard shape as on the Lelands, bridge south of the cant and the distinctive Vega joint between the rear of the headstock and neck.

    I'd be interested to know if this TLW Brilliantone has a serial number there on the brace and whether the bridge here is in the proper position for intonation. I've tried to scale and comp it and the example Allen posted--which is nearly identical to all of mine--but the slight angled positions of the photos make a one-to-one comp hard.

    The headstock on TLWs does resemble the "broken pediment" that Vega used on what I call the "US Hegemony Series" (Empire, Conquest, Victory).

    Yes, I know I barked at you about the Larson thing some time back, Allen, and I'm sorry if it sounded more harsh than intended. But in all seriousness and respect, there are ways we can discuss and dive into these attributions that go beyond simply passing along information from somebody who is trying to sell something. PVI has a real financial stake in the Larson claim. Bob Hartman even admits that he went way overboard on his original claims of Larson attributions.

    It has always seemed odd that Larson is credited with making instruments using Vega specs for something as crucial as top construction and bridge location --for instruments they were purportedly making for Lyon and Healy-- but which differ significantly from L+H specs, while at the same time using a different set of specs for their own mandolins and mandolas--such as what you own. And while at the same time Vega was making instruments with many of those same specs for others, eg. Ditson. Brings Ockham's Razor to mind for me.

    Those questions come up by simply looking at (and playing the instruments). That's all I've been harping about, Allen. People pass along things like, "Well, it might be a Larson..." and then someone quotes someone on the internet who quoted someone else on the internet etc. How many other things in our lives do we make assumptions about in this manner. Well my accordion might be a Larson, too. Or it might not. I know Jake Wildwood passes the same word along. I like and respect Jake, but I think he is wrong, for the reasons I outlined above.

    TLW's is very interesting because there are a number of details which don't follow the many, many Lelands that have shown up here or on ebay. Or the ones in Bob Hartman's book. Or in the Larson instruments you have, Allen.

    Could some of these Brilliantone mandolins have been made by yet a possible third source? (That is if anyone wants to ride along with my Vega attribution.) Sure. Maybe, but it would be a stretch. They weren't made for all that long...but it does seem like L+H went for a lot of them. Could the Larsons be making all these (plus the Ditson Empires, Mayflowers, the Dyers, the Stahls, oh and all the guitars and the etc. etc. etc. that folks accredit them to All in their little operation?) Doesn't seem too much of a stretch to start to piece together a critical position in regards to all this speculation.

    Ditson had a number of folks make bowlbacks for the Hegemony series. And they look different, despite the labeling and naming. You can tell by looking at them--and handling the neck and body. It is my view that Vega -- on their own or by way of L+H-- also sold some of the "Brilliantone" mandolins to Wurlitzer for their distribution under their label.

    Did the Larsons make instruments for Stahl? Certainly. Does a Stahl label mean the Larsons made it? Does that question even need to be asked? (Some birds are ducks. All ducks are birds. Are all birds ducks?) People do the same thing with Martin. Martin made mandolins for SS Stewart, Ditson, Bruno, and Wurlitzer to name a few. And they all look just like Martins. Other Stewarts, Ditsons, Brunos and Wurlitzers look nothing like Martins, yet that doesn't stop sellers, and some folks here, from offering the inevitable "Well it might be a Martin...so and so selling one at such and such a site says so....." And so the misinformation spreads.

    What's the point of us sharing all this information if we don't develop a critical take on things through our own examination of the instruments we admire and play?

    The whole Larson thing has been a burr under my saddle here, I admit, and I've told myself I'd stay out of it, but I am a huuuge fan of the Brilliantone mandolins, so I'm wading back in. They play and sound amazing. The compact design is straightforward and clean. Like a Vega.

    Funny how few (if any) conversations occur around here about how a Larson mandolin might sound.....it is always about speculative "Larson traits" etc. Hard not to be a touch cynical about that. I know folks who speak from experience of how good the guitars sound. Little talk of the mandolin sound here for all the attempts to create a Larson pedigree.

    TLW's Brilliantone is fascinating and I'd love to see more photos--particularly the back--and to know if that elusive serial number shows up. And in particular it would be very interesting to know just where the proper bridge position actually falls on this. But yes, it is true... there have been weird conversations around here, too, with folks claiming the "south of the cant" bridge position is a smoking gun viz a Vega attribution....while the instrument in question bore absolutely no relation to any Vega... and may well have been simply mispositioned by the owner or the result of sloppy or ill-defined cant position on a jobber shop mandolin.

    Sorry to run on so long..(man, I ran on long) just trying to clarify my thoughts and communication on the Larson / Leland topic. Allen, no chastisement here, bro. I didn't mean so before...just a bit of push back and a call to account. I am truly sorry that it came across the wrong way to you.

    Mick
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  10. #10

    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Thanks for the wonderful replies everyone.
    I've searched and searched but could not find a serial number.
    I have taken a ton of pictures so I hope this helps with more information.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    A few more to look over.
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  12. #12
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Thanks, TLW! Did you check inside the mandolin soundhole for a serial number located on the small brace to the neck side of the soundhole? That is where they have typically shown up on the Lelands.

    You could measure from the nut to the 12th fret and then to the bridge saddle to see if the bridge is in the correct position. The distance should be exactly the same.

    The back details look just like "typical" Lelands. Pretty rosewood is the norm, though the Vega / Leland / Wurlitzer I have does have a mahogany back and sides. It sounds appreciably different.

    If the bridge as it is currently located is correct and there is no serial number this would be an even more fascinating Brilliantone, indeed.

    Mick
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  13. #13

    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    I checked the inside small brace to the neck side of the soundhole but no number. Is there a photo example on the forum that could show me an example to make sure I'm looking at the correct area?
    Measurements:
    Nut to 12th fret = 6 and 9/16"
    12th fret to bridge = 6 and 3/8"

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Well, if your measurements are correct it would seem that the bridge location is off and should be 3/16" back from its current location which may put this on the south / Vega side of the top cant of the mandolin....which is where we might expect it to be based on the other Leland examples.

    I'll see if I can get a photo of the serial number from one of my Lelands tonight or in the AM tomorrow when the light is better. And measure their scale length just for comps.

    Mick
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    ...Yes, I know I barked at you about the Larson thing some time back, Allen, and I'm sorry if it sounded more harsh than intended. But in all seriousness and respect, there are ways we can discuss and dive into these attributions that go beyond simply passing along information from somebody who is trying to sell something. PVI has a real financial stake in the Larson claim. Bob Hartman even admits that he went way overboard on his original claims of Larson attributions....

    Those questions come up by simply looking at (and playing the instruments). That's all I've been harping about, Allen. People pass along things like, "Well, it might be a Larson..." and then someone quotes someone on the internet who quoted someone else on the internet etc. How many other things in our lives do we make assumptions about in this manner. Well my accordion might be a Larson, too. Or it might not. I know Jake Wildwood passes the same word along. I like and respect Jake, but I think he is wrong, for the reasons I outlined above.

    TLW's is very interesting because there are a number of details which don't follow the many, many Lelands that have shown up here or on ebay. Or the ones in Bob Hartman's book. Or in the Larson instruments you have, Allen....What's the point of us sharing all this information if we don't develop a critical take on things through our own examination of the instruments we admire and play?...Funny how few (if any) conversations occur around here about how a Larson mandolin might sound.....it is always about speculative "Larson traits" etc. Hard not to be a touch cynical about that. I know folks who speak from experience of how good the guitars sound. Little talk of the mandolin sound here for all the attempts to create a Larson pedigree....Sorry to run on so long..(man, I ran on long) just trying to clarify my thoughts and communication on the Larson / Leland topic. Allen, no chastisement here, bro. I didn't mean so before...just a bit of push back and a call to account. I am truly sorry that it came across the wrong way to you...
    Well, I appreciate your clarification. I retain a feeling of being misunderstood. The Oct. '18 thread in question asked for info about a mandolin labeled "Champion," a brand associated with Chicago dealer Robert Maurer, for whom the Larsons built instruments, and whom they bought out in 1900.

    I said (geez, I hate to quote myself [not really]), "You may have a find there...On the other hand, associating "Champion" with Robert Maurer doesn't guarantee Larson manufacture. Maurer was a dealer, and may well have obtained instruments from a variety of sources. The alternating types of wood in the ribs of the bowl are not a feature I associate with Larson construction, nor is the lyre tailpiece. However, the headstock profile closely resembles that of this Ditson, which Jake Wildwood attributes to the Larsons. I will leave it to the resident bowl-back mavens to give this more thorough and informed scrutiny."

    I think this was pretty cautious. I sure as heck have no credentials to state authoritatively that any given mandolin is or isn't made by the Larsons. You're a helluva lot more qualified in that area.

    What frosted my cookies, was I felt that people came down on me like a ton of Blue Chip picks, saying I was lightheartedly and falsely throwing the "Larson" attribution around. I didn't think I was, only pointing out that the Champion brand was used by Maurer, and that Maurer and the Larsons were closely linked.

    I probably have been guilty in the past of speaking over-sharply to others on the Cafe, or of making light of what I might consider their lack of knowledge. I shouldn't do that, and nobody should, IMHO. We all were new and inexperienced once, and we all may have stoutly maintained erroneous views, and are somewhat rueful about that in retrospect. I try to do better now, but I do have to say that I've not felt the same feeling of safety here since. My problem, not anyone else's, I know.

    Responding to another part of the discussion, I will say that my far-from-"mint" Stahl mandola, pretty reliably identified as a Larson-made instrument, is one of the best mando-family instruments I've owned, and that it's my nearly constant companion for miscellaneous musical events -- jams, sing-arounds, Celtic sessions, etc. Strong, clear voice, warmly overtoned, allowing for full dynamics based on pick weight and technique. It's off to the New England Folk Festival with me, mid-April. So my response to "how a Larson mandolin might sound," in this case, is complex, strong presence, mid-range-heavy, able to be driven but responsive at lower volumes. I'll put up with the somewhat resistant old tuning pegs, as long as it sings like that.

    Two long posts don't necessarily produce more enlightenment, but better to be talking than not. The Leland looks like a real find, and its Mercer provenance is an additional plus.
    Allen Hopkins
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Thanks, Allen.

    It's a conversation we are all having here. It's a cafe not inherently a feel-good session, but there is an incredible amount of general support and respect. You think I've crawled up your axx by asking a few tough questions? Try getting into a conversation with our dear departed Paul Hostetter, or Martin Stillion, or Rick Turner or a number of other guys who really know their shixxx. They'll call you outin a minute and it has helped me raise my game. Is my skin that thin? If it were, I wouldn't have learned have as much as I have from those guys. I do a lot more homework than I used to before posting. I check my sources before posting them. I cross check my own experience with mandolins.

    Am I a "Leland expert"? Yikes, of course not. A "Larson expert"? Not even imaginable. I just look at the instruments I have and have seen, and think about it a little bit even while reading Bob H and Keef's books, et al. With interest, respect and a grain or two of salt. I'm making mistakes every single day. Folks around here are always quick to point them out.

    Glad to hear a description of your LarBrosStahl. It sounds as if it plays as coolioso as it looks. You now have maybe doubled the actual description of the playability of Larson mando-family instruments that I recall reading here.

    Before you get to feeling too put upon, know that I recognize you as an extraordinarily helpful to everyone who posts here. What have you got 15K posts? That's amazing. You're first in line to offer assistance to anyone, which is really great. The problem is totally mine around the whole Larson nonsense which has grown up around here...which you certainly aren't the cause of or the beneficiary of, either. But it has grown flat-out ridiculous and dysfunctional. But you are an influential voice here. Which gives you a position of authority and perhaps of responsibility, as well.

    Yes, you can parse an individual post and say "Dude, read my clarifications...." but it would be disingenuous to suggest that you haven't been sometimes a bit quick to pass along unsubstantiated information on instruments. You don't think so? I'm not going to quibble by digging up a range of posts and citations. That would further the silliness. But is doing that that a crime? Is that horrible? Does that make you a bad person? Haven't we all done that? Haven't I done that? Won't I continue to do that? Does that mean I don't value your many contributions? "Of course not" is the answer to all those questions. If pushing back about some of that doesn't "make you feel safe" then, man, let's sing a Kumbaya and get on with it.

    I sent my apologies along and an attempt for clarification and if that doesn't work for you, then there's a couple choices: stiffen it up or put me on your "ignore list". I'm sure I'm on a lot of folks list for that and wouldn't blame you if you did. (TBH I wouldn't care that much, either....) You, however, aren't ever going to show up on my ignore list.

    Dude.

    Mick
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  18. #17
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Thanks, TLW! Did you check inside the mandolin soundhole for a serial number located on the small brace to the neck side of the soundhole? That is where they have typically shown up on the Lelands.
    Mick, do you have a serial number list for Lelands? I just dragged out my two, the standard (SN11802) and the piccolo (SN10502-as fr as I can tell: the 2nd and 4th digits are faded). I had set up the piccolo and the bridge is on the tailpiece side of the cant. The standard is not set up (bridge is missing the bone saddle). Strangely I measured the nut-12th fret and it measured 6-7/8" which means that the scale length for this mandolin would be 13-3/4" which is almost Gibson scale. I would think that the scale wuld be closer to 13". Does your Leland have that same scale length?
    Jim

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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Paul Teagle's book on the Washburn Company contains a couple of pages from a circa 1912 Lyon & Healy catalog containing a line of Leland mandolin family instruments.

    This makes sense to me. The lack of radius across the width of the top on TLW's mandolin, and also the purfling and inlay style do not remind me of Vega or Larson workmanship.

    The pegheads of at least some of the Leland instruments pictured in the catalog have the heart shaped cut-out that has been used by many makers over the course of history. The body shape of Leland model 703 looks similar to TLW's mandolin, and the 2 fret scalloped fingerboard extension over the soundhole can be faintly discerned in the catalog photo.

    Jim, the catalog lists two standard mandolin models: No. 703, which they call a "First and Second Mando;" and No. 703 1/2, which they call a "Professional Style, with longer 13 3/4" scale."

    A quote from the catalog page: "The First and Second Mandos play the regular 1st and 2nd mandolin parts. They duplicate the 1st and 2nd Violin parts in Orchestra."

    They also list a Model 701 piccolo model, and specify the tuning as "a Fourth higher . . . 1st, A; 2d, D; 3d, G; 4th, C." ". . . plays a part similar to that of the Flute, Piccolo or Clarionet [sic] in Orchestra."

    The 701 listed for $20, and the 703 and 703 1/2 listed for $21.25.

    Also available: No. 705 "Tenor Mando" for $25.63; No. 707 "Mando Cello" for $35.63; and No. 709 "Mando Bass," 69 1/2 inches in height, $80.00.

    I'm not going to attempt to post the catalog page because the pictures are too dark and I'm not computer-savvy enough to make it work.

    I vote for Lyon & Healy as the manufacturer.
    Last edited by rcc56; Mar-30-2019 at 3:12am.

  20. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    rcc56: Actually I supplied the Leland pages from my ca. 1912 original L&H catalog for Hubert's book on Washburn. It is funny that after I checked the scale length of mine last night I looked at the catalog pages but must have missed the 703-1/2 mention of the longer scale. I really want to get that bone saddle installed and this one set up. Unusual for a canted top flatback to have such a long scale.

    You can download pdf of scans of the Leland pages from my ca. 1912 L&H catalog here.
    Jim

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  22. #20
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: L. H. Leland Brilliantone Mando

    Here's my two Lelands. This thread got me motivated to get the standard mandolin set up, especially since I now know it has a longer scale. I have the bone saddle—just have to cut it to fit in the bridge track. Here's an updated photo of the two. I have seen very few of these piccolos. In fact, piccolos are pretty rare in general.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Jim

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    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

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