Buying online

[Br1ck]

Well here's my recent experience at Gryphon. There you will find basically a lot of Eastmans, a fine selection of Collings, and usually at least a Northfield F 5S and a Big Mon. Then whatever trade in or consignment instruments, and often none of those. So I was able to hold and play a variety of Collings and Northfields. Now I think there is good reason for Gryphon to stock those brands. Experience has probably shown them what they can typically sell, and they know their instruments and have picked to focus on Collings because of a very long relationship, and Frank Ford, a mandolinest himself, thinks they are fabulous.

At any given time they might have five or six Collings F style mandolins. So I was able to play those and the Northfields, set up to a high standard. I actually like the brighter F5S than the Big Mon. But I like the more upscale looks of the Big Mon. But I liked a few of the Collings better, but at what cost? Thousands. So it puts one in a quandry to know this. It is in many ways harder.

The online experience gets you a mandolin you can send back if you want. Truth is, any Northridge or Collings would be a joy to own. Are we better off just being happy with that? But you might just like the Big Mon, and happily save several thousands of dollars over a Collings to boot.

But taking a chance on a Silverangel worked splendidly for me. Much as I lust to go to Nashville, I'd dread falling in love with something I couldn't afford. In someways ignorance is bliss, but then experience is knowledge. Then there is the repugnant to me notion of buying online to save the 9% tax buying local would cost, therefore not supporting a fabulous store.

[Charlie Bernstein]

It's surprising to see how many people buy online now. No wonder independent shops are having a hard time - unless they sell online, too!

[Jeff Mando]

I was working at a vintage guitar shop before the internet became commonplace and even then mail order was the norm. MOST of our sales to customers came from seeing our ad in Vintage Guitar magazine and shipped out in a box with a 48 hour approval. We were also located in an area that got some tourist trade, so some in-store sales were sold to out-of-towners, as well. Surprisingly few customers were local, even back then.

The sales tax dodge was a common sales ploy even back then. We were located in the corner of a state bordering two adjacent states, so many guitars were "shipped" to basically the suburbs, sometimes less than 20 miles to save the tax -- back then shipping was $30, while the tax savings could amount to hundreds, depending on the cost of the instrument.

My comment on the potential for shipping damage was ignored by this thread, but I think it is still a valid consideration. C'mon, we're not talking about a pair of tennis shoes going back and forth across the country.......

[Br1ck]

It's surprising to see how many people buy online now. No wonder independent shops are having a hard time - unless they sell online, too!

Think about it. Most of us are not going to be content with a three or four mandoline choice. We want a large selection. To get seriously into the mandolin game, one would need to stock eight or ten mandolins from two or three manufacturers. Let's say they pay half retail for tHem, so ten F 5s averaging 6k, reasonable for say the Collings line, would tie up $30,000 in inventory cost. And then this store is in a city of 250,000. How many play mandolins, then how many of those are shopping $5-10k? Almost demands an online presence to survive.

Add to this the need for either Kentucky or Eastman and things add up. How many complaints here about local stores having two or three imports?

[Jeff Mando]

My former employer (vintage guitar shop) often commented that MOST businesses are unfunded, sometimes operating on a shoestring or close to it! During my employment there we would often go out for several days on buying trips looking for vintage instruments. Sometimes hours from a big city. On those trips, he would often summarize that a certain store might have less than $5K in total inventory -- often selling $100 import instruments that could be bought for $40 wholesale -- and filling a couple walls on a store, probably also doing some string sales, accessories, teaching lessons, consignments, repairs, sheet music, etc. -- we would look at each other in amazement, basically thinking, "how in the world do these guys make a living?" But, everybody has different requirements about what constitutes a "decent living." Or, as my friend would sometimes joke, "I bet his daddy set him up in business to keep him out of trouble" or "his WIFE must have a good job!" OTOH, maybe these businesses served a need in the communities in which they operated.

But, I totally agree, very few independently owned stores are able to stock $250K worth of stuff, just to give us a "good selection." Gruhn used the term "critical mass" meaning a store has to have enough inventory to be taken seriously. Even mega-stores such as Guitar Center often use "smoke and mirrors" techniques to bolster the appearance of a well-stocked store. You walk in the door and see guitars floor to ceiling, but then look at how many Mitchell guitars, Squiers, and Epiphones are in stock in comparison to the top of the line Gibson, Martin, Fender models.....not to mention (lack of) upper-line mandolin selection.........

[Roger Adams]

Since I don't live in a "mando rich environment," I bought both of mine online, from Cafe folks. I would not hesitate to buy from an outfit like Elderly or TMS, who are going to set the mandolin up nicely, and who are not likely to send out a problem child. Most reputable online dealers have a return policy.

[LadysSolo]

It's surprising to see how many people buy online now. No wonder independent shops are having a hard time - unless they sell online, too!

I would prefer to buy locally, but NO local shops stock ANY mandolins, and only one brand of guitar (Alvarez.) So to get any choice, buying on-line is a necessity, not a preference.

[A-board]

My local music store has a decent selection of guitars; mandolins, not so much. Maybe there are 8, some of which have been on the wall for years. Outside of a major music center, like Nashville, maybe the mandolin is too much of a small niche instrument. My 2 mandos have been purchased through Café classifieds, both keepers.

[soliver]

I had good results by doing my best to play an example of what I thought I was intersted in. I do know that consistency is not always a 100% surety, I think that reasonable assumptions can be made. My first was an Eastman so I found a place local to me thatbsold them and I went there intending to actually buy from TMS but actually ended up buying what I played there that day!

Next when I was in the market to upgrade, I was pretty sure I wanted a Silverangel... based on reputation at least, but it was a lot of money for me so I wanted to be certain. I put the word out on the 'café asking if anyone in the area had one they would let me play a little, and then I was able to meet up with Oldsausage (David Mold) and play his... i was pretty sure that was what I wanted after that, ... but I had a trip planned to Nashville upcoming so I made sure to play a little bit of everything including another SA and was able to confirm my want. So from there I custom ordered from Ken with great expectations and what was delivered met all of them. All around, it was a good experience.

Essentially, I would say that if you can, play before you buy, if not, YouTube can give you some idea of what to expect.

[Seter]

Most of my online instrument purchases have been squarely in the pricewise great deal category, so if I end up not liking the instrument I just resell it myself without losing much, and sometimes gaining. Sometimes I'll play the equivalent or similar instrument at Guitar Center just to see how I like it, for instance I made sure I liked the slightly wider necks on Seagull guitars before I bought one. I tend to like somewhat unusual instruments, for instance I would be waiting a very long time if I were expecting an electric mandola, kantele, or taishogoto to show up locally at a store. That said, I have bought instruments locally and that is definitely my preferred route when possible.

[Denman John]

Come to think of it, I have never bought a mandolin from a store/dealer. I've bought a few "used" mandolins from the classifieds here and finally lucked out with a Kimble A oval that I got almost 4.5 years ago at a great price. Both my son and wife got their mandolins directly from the maker and were able to play them before purchase. At this point, I don't see myself buying sight unseen/unplayed again as I now know what I'm looking for in a mandolin, and just as important, what I don't want. It also helps that I'm a 1 mandolin kind of guy and don't see a need/want for another mandolin in the foreseeable future. For selection you can't beat the Classifieds here at the Mandolin Cafe.

If I do get the itch for another mandolin, I could honestly see myself going to Boston/Nashville and trying everything available before making a decision. With that said, I probably could be tempted to take the chance on a Heiden, Kimble or Campanella A style mandolin sight unseen. All I would need is the cash to back it up

[Steve L]

Not that it applies here, but I will repeat a story I have told before on this forum. When I was working at a vintage guitar shop, it was about the time the internet took hold and became fully functional, roughly 20 years ago. One of our wealthy customers decided it would be fun to order online four vintage Martin D-28's and have them arrive at the same time. (fortunately from other dealers, not us!) He and his buddy were going to "test" them over the weekend, decide which was "best" and then ship the other three back! I believe marijuana was involved, FWIW. Anyway, he came to the shop to share with us this "cute" story. That's the kind of stuff that makes me sick. Besides the obvious sense of privilege, getting the other sellers hopes up for a sale only to face a return after the trial period, standing behind the protection of Paypal, etc. -- the most glaring thing is the physical RISK to the instruments, IMHO! Plus, imagine trusting these boneheads to carefully pack the "rejects" for their return trip home....

I've said it before, and I love the internet, especially Mandolin Cafe and youtube, but I do think instruments were happier when they stayed in their own hometowns![/QUOTE]

I've read this a number of times and still can't quite figure out what you find problematic about the buyer here. He's in the market for a D28 and he finds 4 he's interested in that are sold with an approval period. The guitars arrive (presumably paid for), he evaluates them, selects one and buys it and sends the others back. If he had done this one guitar at a time, would that be less objectionable? People selling instruments with a return policy have to anticipate some of those instruments are coming back. The very real risk of damage is baked in the cake of online/shipped sales. If you don't want take that chance, you can state there are no returns/all sales final but that's not going to sit well with potential buyers these days.

People with money and privilege pretty much make up the vintage guitar market, so folks that don't like them may be in the wrong line of work. Having 4 instruments in hand may have actually increased the possibility that he would have liked and kept more than one. How the marijuana angle fits in I don't get at all, nor the assumption that the guy's somehow too stupid to be able to put a guitar back in a box the way it came. If he ordered the guitars with no intention of purchasing just to play them over a weekend, that would be outrageous, but he presumably bought one. They all came with the right of refusal. That was the deal going in.

[Cary Fagan]

Most people I know buy their mandolins in the very good shop in our town. That means mostly Collings, which is fine. But I wanted something different. Twelve years ago I 'heard' murmurs on this site about a new builder, Stefan Passernig. I emailed a couple of owners and got their opinions. I found Stefan's phone number and called him in Austen. I spoke at length to the store owner who carried him. So I did as much homework as I could. And it was returnable. Of course I've still got it.

[Markus]

I find myself mulling this quandary, as I'm in the market for a new mandolin but lack local stores that have what I'm looking for ... and if I'm spending well upward of $2k for an instrument I plan to spend the rest of my life performing with, I'm not looking to make compromises because that's what's local.

I also went to one of our local stores and played most of the 10 Weber mandolins they had in stock last week and had the classic `you have to play every one' experience. First one I tried was top of the line, very woody and impressive. Then some Yellowstone and other nice models - none of which jumped out at me. I finished my sampling with two of the cheapest they had on the shelf, both Gallatin F models.

Of all the mandolins I played that day, one of the Gallatins `had it' more than anything else. The other one was unimpressive and almost surprised me as they were near identical visually but in terms of sound they weren't comparable - one was clearly superior in every way.

While I'm sure the rest would likely mature into impressive instruments, the one Gallatin had a deep woody and very full sound that sounded what I would call `wide open' from the first strum. The whole experience really reminded me of buying my current mandolin, where one single mandolin from all they had [including multiples of a model] just jumped out as being a superior instrument. When shopping that time, I brought a friend out and played a couple without telling him which one I preferred and he very quickly zeroed in on the one I liked as being best. Maybe it's just my ear/experience, but my limited shopping expertise has led me pretty strongly to believe that playing everything in a well-stocked shop sometimes shows a clear `standout' from among similar models by the same maker.

YMMV, but I'm leaning back towards making the drive/hotel trip to Carters or Elderly to purchase. That said, I'm also aware that might lead me to the doghouse, as I'm likely to fall in love with something over the limit my wife and I agreed on before leaving lol.

I had strongly considered ordering online and scheduling it so that the 48 hour window coincided with a regional jam weekend, as that would be a great time to A/B with my current mandolin in a variety of situations including a loud jam - as well as spend 8-12 hours of the day playing it. Still considering that option, but logistics seem increasingly difficult and my experience playing multiple Webers leads me to want to try them in person.

I'd rather find the next step up for me in a single shot and spend my time learning that instrument inside and out vs. a long multi-mandolin hunt for satisfaction.

[Jeff Mando]

Not that it applies here, but I will repeat a story I have told before on this forum. When I was working at a vintage guitar shop, it was about the time the internet took hold and became fully functional, roughly 20 years ago. One of our wealthy customers decided it would be fun to order online four vintage Martin D-28's and have them arrive at the same time. (fortunately from other dealers, not us!) He and his buddy were going to "test" them over the weekend, decide which was "best" and then ship the other three back! I believe marijuana was involved, FWIW. Anyway, he came to the shop to share with us this "cute" story. That's the kind of stuff that makes me sick. Besides the obvious sense of privilege, getting the other sellers hopes up for a sale only to face a return after the trial period, standing behind the protection of Paypal, etc. -- the most glaring thing is the physical RISK to the instruments, IMHO! Plus, imagine trusting these boneheads to carefully pack the "rejects" for their return trip home....

I've said it before, and I love the internet, especially Mandolin Cafe and youtube, but I do think instruments were happier when they stayed in their own hometowns!

I've read this a number of times and still can't quite figure out what you find problematic about the buyer here. He's in the market for a D28 and he finds 4 he's interested in that are sold with an approval period. The guitars arrive (presumably paid for), he evaluates them, selects one and buys it and sends the others back. If he had done this one guitar at a time, would that be less objectionable? People selling instruments with a return policy have to anticipate some of those instruments are coming back. The very real risk of damage is baked in the cake of online/shipped sales. If you don't want take that chance, you can state there are no returns/all sales final but that's not going to sit well with potential buyers these days.

People with money and privilege pretty much make up the vintage guitar market, so folks that don't like them may be in the wrong line of work. Having 4 instruments in hand may have actually increased the possibility that he would have liked and kept more than one. How the marijuana angle fits in I don't get at all, nor the assumption that the guy's somehow too stupid to be able to put a guitar back in a box the way it came. If he ordered the guitars with no intention of purchasing just to play them over a weekend, that would be outrageous, but he presumably bought one. They all came with the right of refusal. That was the deal going in.[/QUOTE]

Hi Steve,
I appreciate and understand your perspective. I agree our hobby appeals to an elite group who can afford a $20K mandolin and a $1000 flight case, even though the mandolin may never leave the house. Nothing wrong with that. Some people have 10 mandolins and are still searching for the "one" -- again, that's fine, all part of the hobby. There is also the player who loves his $50 Rogue and is fine with it.

Sorry to bring "class" into the story, but obviously an unemployed person couldn't put four guitars on his card and test them over the weekend. Or, a person who works at a burger joint. However, someone with a good job and good credit could, but I'm guessing they probably wouldn't.......
I probably shouldn't have used the word "wealthy" but I felt it added to the description and the story told better with it. Mostly, it was his telling of the story, as if he knew he got away with something, almost bragging, that I found offensive.

I put myself in the shoes of the other sellers. I'm guessing, if you told them before the "purchase" that there is a 75% chance that the guitar will be returned -- EVERY dealer would refuse to do business with such a "buyer." Too much shipping risk and nonsense to deal with, IMHO. Although, technically within his right to return, I think it shows bad form and deception by not mentioning it on the front end. Kinda tricky, IMHO. And, there is certainly a fine line. Buying four and returning three is close to "just wearing a wedding dress one day" then returning it, even though you are "keeping one"......not quite the same, but close, IMHO.

I have enjoyed doing business with people from all walks of life and most people are great and play fair. An old saying is, "a good deal is a good deal for BOTH parties."

I hope this clarifies. Yes, although true in this case, I did mention the wacky tobacky to add a Cheech & Chong element to the telling of the story......

Jeff

[Steve L]

Hi Jeff, I might not agree with your point of view but I really appreciate the friendly tone of your response. Thank you for that and all the best to you.

[Br1ck]

As I've stated before, in the violin world, at least the classical part of it, itis expected and encouraged that fine instruments are shipped to a customer, so that they could have multiple instruments from multiple sources to try head to head. No money required, you just pay shipping both ways on the rejects, and send the shop a check for the winner.

My daughter had $120k worth of violas at her house for two weeks,then two that were picked had a further thirty days. Now this is the way to pick instruments.

[fatt-dad]

I'd guess I've bought most of my instruments without first playing them? Clearly for the custom orders. Certainly in my spell of buying solid MIJ mandolins 15 years ago! I've also bought items like Phoenix, Ellis, Flatiron, Stiver, Gibson (snakes), Brentrup, etc. via the on-line, "Pay before you play" approach.

Few disappointments along the way. Few, "Losses" along the way (what I like to call tuition). Some great experiences too!'

In the end, what have I really learned? It's just so much easier to buy instruments than to learn to play them! I've also learned that I do prefer the 1-3/16ths nut. Jury's still out on whether I think a radius fretboard is a must-have?

f-d

[OlDanTucker]

As one moves up the Mandolin Food Chain it becomes ever more necessary to buy online. However I've done it both ways.

My Eastman I bought from a store that was very new and had just bought 3 different Eastman Mandolins that I could compare. They were very different. I ended up buying a 515 when my budget could have handled a 615. It was quite the learning experience.

When it was time to upgrade I got to play different mandolins at Fiddlers Green. I wanted an Ellis A. I narrowed it down to Pava Satin, Colling MF, and Northfield, but only had about a $2k budget and they didn't have anything that cheap. While waiting for money to accumulate a Pava Player showed up on the Café. Cautiously and with fear and trepidation contacted the seller, got sound files and pictures, a paypal account, and dickered price. I tried to chicken out a few times. Finally he made an offer that was so low, I was pretty sure I could sell it in Austin if I didn't like it. Belt and suspenders.

It was terrifying waiting for it to arrive, and when it did I thought I might have made a mistake. It didn't sound as good as the one's at Fiddlers. It was set up with super high action, old rusty J75's that weren't necessary, and a bridge in the wrong place. Someone had tried to make a bluegrass cannon out of it, which it could do, but at the expense of depth of tone. I "Meldrumed" it as best I could and it woke up and started speaking to me. It was about 7 years old which was a huge difference because it had been played in already. I still have it.

Next upgrade will be in the $4K range and will most likely be another online purchase. Maybe I will finally get that Ellis A. Or a Pava F.