Music Theory minor Pentatonic Scale

[TommyK]

I am self studying music theory so I can get to the next 'level'.

I’m confused. #I’ve figured out the Am scale. #It’s easy because there’re no bs or #s.

My next is the Em. #The key signature has one #. #It’s F#. #Using the following formula for a minor pentatonic scale:


R #3b #4 #5 #7b


I get:

R # # 3rd # #4th # #5th # #7th
E # # #G # # #A # # # B # # # D

Put in the flats:

E # # #Gb(F#) A # # # B # # # Db(C#)

There's only one sharp in the key sig. #What did I do wrong?

[Ken Sager]

Your first run is correct. G is the flat third of E, and D is the flat 7th.

[Ted Eschliman]

Looks like Ken beat me to it, but to reiterate:
The distance between E and G is already a flatted 3rd, and the distance between E and D is already a flatted 7th. No need to flat them again.
Is this what you were looking for?

[Tbone]

You should think about constructing the Em pent from the E maj scale, not the E min scale. That's why you're getting the double flats, if you construct the E min pent from the E min scale, the E min scale already has those notes flatted.

E F# G# A B C# D# E

R 3b 4 5 7b = E G A B D

Or, you could just play G pentatonic from E to E to get the E min pent.

[TommyK]

Hunh??

Maybe I should get more basic.
I know the root is E, but...In the Em pent scale what is the... 2,3,4,5,6,7?

Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th?
E

[JimD]

[/QUOTE]Maybe I should get more basic.
I know the root is E, but...In the Em pent scale what is the... 2,3,4,5,6,7?
[QUOTE]

There is no 2 or 6 in a minor pentatonic scale. "Pent" = 5-- so this scale can only have 5 different pitches.

3 -- G (compared to a major scale this is b3)
4 -- A
5 -- B
7 -- D (compared to a major scale this is b7)

[TommyK]

Maybe I should get more basic. #
I know the root is E, but...In the Em pent scale what is the... 2,3,4,5,6,7?

There is no 2 or 6 in a minor pentatonic scale. "Pent" = 5-- so this scale can only have 5 different pitches.

3 -- G # #(compared to a major scale this is b3)
4 -- A
5 -- B
7 -- D # #(compared to a major scale this is b7)

So they're all natural notes?

[acumando]

So they're all natural notes?

they're all notes that are already spelled out in the key signature. i think you're confusing yourself with putting in b3 & b7. once you've got the key signature figured out, you don't need to flat the third or seventh.

[TommyK]

So, apparently, I've mucked up the formula.
What is the formula for a minor pentatonic scale?

R.. then what?

[Michael H Geimer]

I think there might confusion about how a natural note (like G) can end up as a b3.

There is no solid connection between the raw name of any note C, D, E, F, G etc. and that notes role in a specific scale (Tonic, 2nd, 3rd, b3rd. b7th. etc.)

For the sake of your learning, it might be helpful to ignore the common note names, and focus your attention on scale intervals and their relationships to each other ... independant of wether the name suggests it is natural or altered.

It can be confusing. Hopefully I didn't cloud the situation further.

- Benig

[duuuude]

Tommy, you can also count up the number of frets from the root to get the scale notes, R-3-2-2-3-2®. Similar to intervals, you just don't need the theory behind it and it works for any beginning note.

R = E, up 3 frets = G, up two more frets = A, etc.

A major pentatonic using this method would be R-2-2-3-2-3®, I used this format to begin understanding intervals before tackling any related theory, but in the long run definitely go with learning the "why" behind the "how".

[Michael H Geimer]

TommyK, You haven't mucked up the formula at all ... you are misinterpreting one part is all.

I just read your original post, and you have got it ... except when you decide to "put in the flats". That's where I think you've missed the mark.

In the context of a minor pentatonic, the term flat-third (or minor-third) is a decription of the 'musical distance' from the tonic to the third interval of the scale.

In this case, E is the tonic and the G is the third. The distance between those two notes is a flat-third (or minor-third).

If we travelled instead a full major-third (or just a third) up from the tonic (E) we would then end up on G# ... which is the third interval in the E-major scale.

So you see ... If a major third up from E is a G#, and we flat that third in order to make it minor, we end up at G natural.

Clear as mud?

[CraigF]

Maybe this will help...
minor 3rd = 1 1/2 steps (3 frets)
major 3rd = 2 whole steps (4 frets)
Remember, there is only a 1/2 step between E&F and between B&C

[acumando]

would tab help?

e pentatonic minor scale

e ------------
a ------ 2 5 (7)
d 2 5 7 ------
g -------------

# R 3 4 5 7 ®

this shape is movable, you can start with the root of any pentatonic minor scale under your index finger and the fingerings and intervals (distance between notes) will be the same.

the interval between the
2nd and 5th fret is a minor third
5th and 7th fret is a major second (whole step)
7th and 2nd fret on the next string is a major second (whole step)
2nd and 5th fret is a minor third
5th and 7th fret is a major second (whole step)

so the formula in intervals from one note to the next as duuuude pointed out is R-3-2-2-3-2®

the formula in intervals between the root and the remaining notes of the scale is the formula you started with:
the interval between the
2nd (root) and 5th fret is a minor third (you have it as b3)
2nd (root) and 7th fret is a fourth (4)
2nd (root) and 2nd fret on the next string is a fifth (5)
2nd (root) and 5th fret on the next string is a minor seventh (b7)
that's your formula
R #3b #4 #5 #7b

helps? or not?

[Chip Booth]

perhaps it was stated clearly aboove, but when we say "flatted third" that is always a comparison to the major scale, even if we are talking about a minor scale.

So in your case

E F# G A B C D

IS the E minor scale and it already has a flatted third, sixth and seventh. You do not have to flat them, they are already flat in comparison to an E major scale that has the notes:

E F# G# A B C# D#

Note that G C and D are natural in the minor scale with makes them flat compared to G#,C# and D# in the major scale.

I bet between all these posts you find your answer.

Chip

[TommyK]

Ahhhhhhhh soooooo!
The fog is clearing. Thanks Mandotater!

[pickinpox]

As you can see there are many ways of looking at this. The trick is to find one that resonates with your understanding. I'll add this. Like Tbone mentioned the Em scale is the same as the GM scale but starting and ending on different tones. One method is to learn the scales over several octaves and then select the beginning and ending point to suit whether you want Major, Minor or one of the modes.

[Michael H Geimer]

" ... the Em scale is the same as the GM scale but starting and ending on different tones. "

True enough for this discussion, but not entirely accuate. The mode of E aeolian would be the true 'mirror' of the G major scale.

Technically, Minor keys comes in several 'flavors' including Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic. They each very a little in how the 7th degree is treated ... even changing depending on if you are moving up or down the scales (specifically towards or away from the tonic).

Uhhh, sorry ... I'm probably not helping things.

[pickinpox]

You are exactly right Mike but I wanted to emphasize the technique of practicing the scales beyond the limits of one octave as a way to get the notes internalized.