Replacement Tuner Buttons

[MikeEdgerton]

Does anyone know about the 1950’s 1960’s kluson gibson tuners

If you're looking for replacements they are being made now and available here. If you're looking for replacment buttons for crumbling buttons you have to improvise a bit with the buttons made for Schallers. Frank Ford talks about replacing crumbling buttons on www.frets.com website. The article is here. The Stewmac buttons are here. There may be other sources.

In case you ever wondered what the inside of those Kluson tuners looked like, the late Paul Hostetter posted this picture on a past thread.

[AMandolin]

Wow, I didn’t realize it was such a crude design.

[MikeEdgerton]

Wow, I didn’t realize it was such a crude design.

I didn't either until Paul posted that picture. I always assumed the cover was more protection than anything else. I was wrong.

[GTison]

So, surfing around I ran across an old article by a respected source. How bout this:
http://www.lutherie.net/gotoh.compared.html

by this thread BOTH his examples are Sagas. Hmmm.

[MikeEdgerton]

Enlighten me, I don't know what you're using as examples. Paul's pages were based on older models.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm assuming your read the part about the bushing under the post. That's a recent addition to the Gotoh tuners. When Paul built that page they weren't there yet. The only way to determine Saga from Gotoh is the size of the shaft where the button is mounted. There is a slight difference in the plate width but the button size is a glaring difference. Even the rivet descriptions have changed.

[Scott R]

Mike is correct. Current Saga knockoffs do not feature the new design that Gotoh switched to many years ago when they ditched the square posts.

You can know that they are older Gotoh's if they have square mounts for the buttons. New saga knockoffs have the 2 flat 2 round design.

[Mandobart]

So a little more info on this old thread. A few months ago I got a hold of some Gotoh ebony buttons from Luthier's Merc and they fit the Morris F4 (square, 0.124" (~3.17 mm) across both sets of flats). So I probably misheard or misremembered him - they are most likely Gotoh tuners.

I ordered some ebony buttons off Amazon which if the dimensions are as advertised will fit the guitar tuners on my mandocello. I will report back on this, but initially they gave me a delivery date in October! I guess they have to wait to harvest the wood?

I appreciate the help from everyone, especially Scott R. and Mike Edgerton.

[Mandobart]

A new question related to the original one:

Are mini-tuner shafts and the corresponding hole in the buttons typically the same dimensions as their full-size brethren? That is, do Grover mini-tuner buttons fit on regular size Grover shafts? I've found that the ebony Gotoh guitar buttons I bought from LMI fit on my Gotoh mandolin tuner shafts.

I found today that the Grover labeled mini tuners on my Epiphone Mandobird VIII fit perfectly on the tuner shafts on my octave mandolin.

I searched up a source that sells ebony mini tuner buttons for Gotoh and another set for mini Grover. Went ahead and ordered both. I'll let everyone (all 3 of us) know if they work when they show up.

[Mandobart]

The mini-Grover ebony buttons arrived today. Original pearloid buttons:



New ebony buttons:



Part number -
This is much more preferable to me. I’ll post pics when the mini Gotohs come in. So for some tuner brands there are readily available wood buttons to replace the “roids.”

[Mandobart]

And now for the mini Gotoh buttons. I bought these regular guitar sized ebony buttons for Gotoh tuners and put them on my Morris. They fit perfectly but are just too big:



Here are the mini Gotoh’s. They look better and work fine, but have a looser, sloppier fit on the square shaft:

[Richard500]

Just from the mechanical side, a loose fit on either of those shaft shapes will be a stress concentrator at the corners. So other than reducing your enjoyment of nice smooth tuners with low backlash, the buttons may have the holes enlarged with use and maybe fail.
Perhaps a tiny shim (paper, plastic) could be helpful.

[jim simpson]

Just from the mechanical side, a loose fit on either of those shaft shapes will be a stress concentrator at the corners. So other than reducing your enjoyment of nice smooth tuners with low backlash, the buttons may have the holes enlarged with use and maybe fail.
Perhaps a tiny shim (paper, plastic) could be helpful.

I'd be tempted to mix up some epoxy and fill the cavity before installing to fill any space.

[Mandobart]

I'd be tempted to mix up some epoxy and fill the cavity before installing to fill any space.

The buttons are only slightly looser when slipping over the shaft. Once the button screw is hand tight the tuners function just as before. I never epoxy anything that's meant to be removable (and that I may want to disassemble in the future).

[Mandobart]

I ordered some ebony buttons off Amazon which if the dimensions are as advertised will fit the guitar tuners on my mandocello. I will report back on this, but initially they gave me a delivery date in October! I guess they have to wait to harvest the wood?

I appreciate the help from everyone, especially Scott R. and Mike Edgerton.

The Amazon ebony buttons arrived from China. They didn’t quite fit so I spent some time with a drill and tiny file. Here are a couple pics of side by side ebony and pearloid:




Here it is with 10 new ebony buttons:

[Bill Drellow]

I recently painted a set of MoTS buttons from a set of Grover 309s using a Rustoleum 2X rattle can and they came out looking exactly like a set of gloss black HanChang/Grover buttons I have. The 2X product is a blend of primer and topcoat that bonds to plastic, according to the label. I've had very good success with it over the years, including with weathered plastic outdoor furniture. Following the instrux I applied three coats within about 15 minutes and the 2nd and 3rd coats layed down nice and smooth. I don't expect the paint to flake off, but if it does I'll update this. I used gloss black but I imagine flat black would resemble ebony pretty closely.

[Mandopathy]

Sorry to return to this thread but I have a similar problem. I haven't been able to identify the machine head to try to track down replacement buttons (see images). Can anyone advise please? The button is approximately 13.5 diameter. The screw through the middle is approximately 13mm long but I can't really judge the measurement of the length between the flat faces of the peg that goes into the button.

[MikeEdgerton]

That sleeve that goes over the button stem is indicative of a group of tuners made in Korea by a company I've never been able to identify. What brand is the mandolin? They are not Gotoh's. They could be a Saga product but I'm not sure there.

[Mandopathy]

Thanks for your quick reply Mike. The mandolin was hand-made by a luthier but he seems so busy gigging that his only response to me ignored the question as to the maker of the machine heads. I chase him but get no reply. Your suggestion of Saga was a good one. I've looked at the Saga Music web site and they seem to sell Golden Gate machine heads - could that be the brand you were thinking of? These look similar to mine but I can't find ones with black buttons https://www.sagamusic.com/shop/frett...2-planks-gold/ Maybe I should just get a complete new set of machine heads as getting buttons alone seems very difficult. As I live in the UK, are the machine heads of different makers going to be interchangeable in terms of fixing screw holes in the same place or at least the place where the post passes through from the underside to the top of the headstock? You mention Gotoh's. Would they be a good replacement? Any other?

[Richard500]

You have some work to do if these remain unknown. First, there is a small possibility that the post spacing is other than current, more or less standard (see threads on how to measure this). If ok, then you can replace with other good ones (see threads on this subject!). If not ok, then… No, mounting screw holes are not guaranteed to be in the same places. It apparently bothers some people to drill new holes as if it means anything. New holes must be pre-drilled, but the new tuners must be precisely located, which takes some knowledge.
The button attachment you have does not make for an obvious easy replacement without some machining of the new button, but since you have the broken button, you may get a good, permanent fix by just super-gluing the old one together and to the little sleeve. I’d do this first if you are otherwise happy with how the tuners work.

[Mandopathy]

Thanks for your thoughts on this Richard. I did try a glue repair on the broken button but it didn't hold for long. Maybe I'll try another type of glue as a temporary measure. I don't feel confident in getting a precise fix for new machine heads based on what you wrote. So I'll probably keep chasing the luthier who made the mandolin.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks for your quick reply Mike. The mandolin was hand-made by a luthier but he seems so busy gigging that his only response to me ignored the question as to the maker of the machine heads. I chase him but get no reply. Your suggestion of Saga was a good one. I've looked at the Saga Music web site and they seem to sell Golden Gate machine heads - could that be the brand you were thinking of? These look similar to mine but I can't find ones with black buttons https://www.sagamusic.com/shop/frett...2-planks-gold/ Maybe I should just get a complete new set of machine heads as getting buttons alone seems very difficult. As I live in the UK, are the machine heads of different makers going to be interchangeable in terms of fixing screw holes in the same place or at least the place where the post passes through from the underside to the top of the headstock? You mention Gotoh's. Would they be a good replacement? Any other?

Saga brought in many different models of tuners under the Golden Gate brand name. Gotoh would be a good choice but as long as you're looking to put better tuners on it look at the Rubner tuners.

https://www.rubnertuners.com/mandolin-machines

[Sue Rieter]

Thanks for your thoughts on this Richard. I did try a glue repair on the broken button but it didn't hold for long. Maybe I'll try another type of glue as a temporary measure. I don't feel confident in getting a precise fix for new machine heads based on what you wrote. So I'll probably keep chasing the luthier who made the mandolin.

I have a broken button problem myself and am up for trying glue first, so I'm interested in what you try. I read somewhere (here on the forum, probably?) either duco cement (don't know if the green tube ("all purpose") or blue tube ("plastic and model cement")) or epoxy (it was a specific kind but I can't find my notes as my desk is a disaster).

I understand from many sources that gluing the button is an unlikely long shot. Nonetheless, it falls under nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Mandopathy]

I used 2-part epoxy (Araldite) and that didn't hold. Superglue would be my next try. However, I think it's not going to work even if it holds. I suspect that, when I broke the button, it will also have stripped the internal surface of the button where it engages with the flat part of the pin that engages with it...sorry difficult to explain in words.

[Sue Rieter]

I think I know what you mean. Mine has like a star-shaped spline. Some have "wings". There might be other shapes I don't know about.
What I'm not sure I want to try is gluing the button to the shaft.