Seeking possible origin of unmarked vintage bowlback

[Hownowever]

Hello everyone. I purchased this beautiful lute style mandolin a few months ago for $200 , but would really love to know more about it, including its real value. The music shop did not know its origin or even what to call it really. Does anyone recognize anything about this? There are no distinguishing manufacturer marks of any sort !
It's in wonderful condition, with just a handful of tiny dents and scratches.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tj67ij4e5L8asgHEA

[EdHanrahan]

Whoa! That's an impressive piece! As a far-from-expert, I'll guess that it's not -or was not intended to be- a mandolin at all. Some form of lute, maybe? The non-raised fretboard, with the higher frets inlaid directly into the top/soundboard, is a design that pre-dates most mandolins, at least as I know them.

The tuning gears are a design that seems to have been mostly European from (guessing) maybe the 1880s thru 1930s. Specifically, the gears are riveted onto each post, plus the shape of the gears: a knife-edge worm engaging with almost square cogs. Compare that to almost any current tuner set (close-ups on Stewmac.com) and the difference is obvious.

I guess someone could have built a more modern instrument intended to emulate an older lute. A highly pertinent question would be: What is the scale length, being the vibrating string distance between bridge and nut? (True mandolins tend to be 13"-14", with 13 7/8" about standard. Mandolas would be 2-3 inches longer.)

But I could be way off base on any of this... I'm sure that the true experts will let us know!

[vic-victor]

It is a German instrument, made in Saxony in 20 century. It is a mandolin, of course (or mandola, depending on size). They made many baroque-inspired instruments there. It appears to be in good condition, so $200.00 sounds good. This style is not particularly valuable or sought after though.

[NickR]

Yes, I have a mandolin with that headstock ornamentation and those tuners. I believe it was made by Meinel & Herold of Klingentahal, Saxony about 1930.

[vic-victor]

yep

[NickR]

The mandolin is labelled A. Monzino & Garlandini of Milan but I read that one of the family members of the firm in the 1920s had trained in Saxony, and the instrument is pure Saxon in design.The case which is also 1930s is British made- that's quite wonderful and I have tidied it up. It was once cherry coloured- the colour remains under the metalware. The seller told me he had been bequeathed 76 folk instruments- and this was one. He said one day he would be selling them but he runs a big antique business which probably keeps him busy as no more have appeared. My guitar repair expert ( the mandolin is in need of no repairs) asked if one the 76 instruments might be a trombone, which kind of dates us a bit. I know he said two were Kay Kraft tenor guitars. Going up in size, is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD4JyIwEXEo

[NickR]

There was this thread on M & H mandolins that included some catalogue pages of similar but probably older versions of the OP's instrument: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...dow?styleid=10

From that link, here is the circa 1910 catalogue page.The mandolin is a "loud mandolin"!

[LadysSolo]

Why can't I ever find anything like that?!?

[Bob Clark]

Why can't I ever find anything like that?!?

Yeah, me too. Who could pass up this beauty?

[Martin Jonas]

The mandolin is a "loud mandolin"!

I rather like "loud mandolin". More prosaically, the German translates actually as "lute mandolin".

The full description is:

"Lute mandolins. Tuned like violin, double strings E, A, D, G. The instrument resembles a small lute in its external appearance, but is strung like a mandolin and is also played like one."

They made these lute mandolins in three versions: with a light soundboard, a dark soundboard and as a 12-string mandriola.

It's really a mandolin version of the much more common German lute guitars of that period: bowlback instruments that mimicked the appearance of a lute but were really just six-string guitars in standard tuning with a mock-medieval look. They were also commonly sold as "Luther lutes", with a carved portrait of Martin Luther on the headstock, based on a mistaken belief that Luther played the guitar. Mock-medievalism was big in Germany in the late-19th/early 20th-century and again now. Here is a nice video of a German folk song played on lute guitar, using a 1914 arrangement from the "Zupfgeigenhansel" songbook.

The OP's lute mandolin differs from the one in the catalogue in that it has a floating bridge and a wider and more round soundboard. Still looks very German, though.

Martin

[NickR]

The German for loud is laut and my comment was purely whimsical. The name lute derives from the middle eastern instrument, the Oud and literally just means wood. I think the OP's instrument is 20 odd years newer than the one in the catalogue and has some differences as you point out.

[Hownowever]

I think the OP's instrument is 20 odd years newer than the one in the catalogue and has some differences as you point out.

Thanks a bushel everyone for your thoughts!
Seems like there are some good clues coming "out of the woodwork".
I am totally an amateur mandolin player. I'm trained in classical clarinet and doumbek, but string instruments are foreign to me. I bought the cheapest mandolin out there (a Rogue RM-100A) a year ago so I could tinker around. Turned out I really enjoyed playing. So I decided to step up the quality of instrument a bit. because I love middle eastern music and the sound of an oud, I started seeking an old bowlback - mostly because they look most like an oud . However, this mandolin that I bought has turned out to be very difficult to play. At first I thought it was the strings being too dense, so I put Dogal Calace Dolce strings on. It's still quite twangy and actually I believe sounds worse than my $65 Rogue ! So I'd like to resell it , and perhaps it would actually be better off as ornamentation than a serious instrument ...?

Anyone here have any thoughts about playing middle eastern-ish music on a mandolin?!

Thank youuu

[Hownowever]

Ah yes , and so does everyone agree that $200 seems like approx. the right price?

[Bob A]

I had a guitar-sized German folk lute many decades ago. Nylon-strung.

$2-300.

[NickR]

It may be difficult to play for a number of reasons. The first decent modern mandolin I bought is the easiest to play- although I have tried hard to find one that is "easier." There is the scale length which is a factor, the width of the board, the frets, and the overall condition of the mandolin itself- especially, the neck. Then there is its tuning stability and so on. I am sticking to a 14 inch scale now and not spending time playing my mandolins with a shorter scale- other than tuning them up and having a quick go on them. My little German mandolin is easy to play and it is in great condition- all the frets are good and it has a shorter scale than 14 inches but apart from looking at it to make my earlier post, I am not playing it at the moment. I do need a loud mandolin to be heard with massed ranks of banjos present.

[Caleb]

I don't have any info, but just wanted to say how cool of an instrument that is. I'd love to find something like that for $200!

[Jim Garber]

It is a German instrument, made in Saxony in 20 century. It is a mandolin, of course (or mandola, depending on size). They made many baroque-inspired instruments there. It appears to be in good condition, so $200.00 sounds good. This style is not particularly valuable or sought after though.

I had a guitar-sized German folk lute many decades ago. Nylon-strung.

$2-300.

I had one of those German guitar-lutes many years ago. Nothing special. I seem to recall that the fretboard was scalloped. I don't think this mandolin is. Monzino & Garlandini were quality luthiers though so it might be a nice one.

-------
Whoops! The OP's is unmarked while NickR's is from Monzino & Garlandini. Sorry abut the confusion.

The mandolin is labelled A. Monzino & Garlandini of Milan but I read that one of the family members of the firm in the 1920s had trained in Saxony, and the instrument is pure Saxon in design.

[vic-victor]

It looks like at least at some stage Monzino gang imported most of their stock from both Catania and Saxony and probably gathered some models from local luthiers aswell...

[NickR]

This is a translation of what I found:

1929 Antonio Carlo VI trained at the violin-making schools of Mirecourt and Markneukirchen joined the company under the guidance of his uncle Carlo Garlandini and his mother Margherita Monzino and developed the import activity alongside the production and retail store under the company name Monzino and Garlandini . This enterprise was then headed by an extended family in which the cousins ​​Garlandini were involved. It was indeed the aunt, Rosa Garlandini, who managed the retail store in Via Larga, at number 20.

I think that if he joined in 1929 and he had been in Saxony and "developed the import activity" after he joined the firm then that sums it up. My mandolin has a really high quality spruce top and I think the sides are probably sycamore and there may also be hornbeam in its construction as well.